RANT: AB RSview Studio ME xyz

Warning: Rant

*opinion=ON*

If RSView Studio Machine Edition / PanelView Plus is Rockwell's
vision of the future of operator interface, man, do we have
trouble ahead.

After 2 days of non-progress, reading the 'manual' twice through,
I've managed to:

1. Get NO screens written.
2. Crash a brand new computer, with a fresh install of MS XP Pro, CONSISTENTLY.
3. Find myself wishing the end user had picked a Siemens S7-300 instead of a AB.

For a company that prides itself on its best product ('marketing'), the propeller heads in Milwaukee (or offshore, for all I know) surely blew it with this product suite. ViewAnyWhere? How about ViewIDontKnowWhere.

The alphabet soup of OPC/OLE/Enterprise/Topic/ME/SE/PVP/CE makes my head spin so much I need crib notes to keep it all straight. THIS STUFF WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE THIS BLASTED COMPLICATED.

If a seasoned vet in this business can get so tied up, I can just imagine how much fun the tech support people are having, along with the distributors, who, by this time are hating every PV+ they've ever sold.

I'll give the folks at AB/Rockwell credit for a few things.
A: Microsoft now has a wonderful test stand for the 'uncrashable' operating system.
B: They're saving all kinds of money writing simple things like EXAMPLES in their books.

Oh, one more thing: Showing me a fully functional car (i.e. RSVME example file) does not tell me how to build one. C'mon, can you do any better?

Allen Bradley/Rockwell: You can always buy better, but you'll never pay more.
*opinion=OFF*

About all I can say about your rant is; "OUTSTANDING"

I specially LOVED the comment

You can always buy better, but you'll never pay more.

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When I walked into GE Fanuc's Cimplicity cold a few years back, at least after 3 days I had a stack of screens to show for my time. They weren't great, but the end customer thought they were okay, and thats all that matters.

Take two I/O, take a deep breath, get a GOOD nights rest, and have a great weekend.

best regards........casey

WARNING: RANT=ON OPINION=ON

I don't really agree with you jdbrandt!

You were way to kind to Allen Bradley.

With all due respect to Ken Roach and others here who depend on A-B to fill their rice bowl, Rockwell Software screwed the pooch big time on this one.

The PanelView Plus hardware is actually pretty good, but the guys at Rockwell Software need to get out with some real customers and do some real applications so they can separate the useless **** like rotating icons from useful stuff like trends that work even if they are not on screen at the moment. (This is true - the default trend line quits gathering data when you switch screens. You have to jump through all kinds of hoops and create special tags to get a process trend to collect data if you switch screens to, say, a tuning or overview page!)

The last of umpteen updates is useable, but definitely not the product to take A-B into the operator interface lead.

RE: Rant

The best is the marketing BS they claim that the RSView Anywhere is the selling point of this Packaging try to Pull an Rsview32 .gfx file into RSView ME, it won't happen. A law suit waiting to happen. If you build a project with the concept of building the RSView 32 app and pulling screens down to machine level, you have, to pull on terms used, "SCREWED THE POOCH". I have succssfully created apps and that run fairley well but, I had heat problems, thats why they're metal encased and not plastic. Download issues, sometimes takes two tries and then cycle power. However, I do like the idea of the expression capability, saves some logic. And the increased graphics capabilities, Able to use photo backdrops of devices such as drives and stick objects in under the buttons makes for cool efects for devices etc. But you are right on the Windows XP thing thats why I've stayed with 2000Pro I won't leave until I have too. So far so good on all apps including Non-AB.

Anyway I feal ya
I just threw the damn book away and trialed and errored one hooked up. Hands on works better for me anyway.

good luck - Win 2000 Pro is a good stable platform for all the AB stuff I have and more.
rkduet

ICS

Yep, I can agree that Rockwell has dropped the ball on a few items of interest to us. Unfortunatetly, now they have come up with ICS and if you think you have problems now!!!!!
Wait till you see one of these ICS generated PLC and HMI programs!
Integrated Control Solutions, that only means they are trying to illiminate my job, System Integration Engineering. Well I have nothing to worry about, last time I looked, they are still crushing cars at Mitsubishi Motors in Alabama. Just a "CLICK" away!

Yeah right!
Rockwell is about ready to face a multi-million dollar lawsuit!
but other than that,,,
yes, I love Controllogix and Foundation Fieldbus!!!
I don't think they will ever replace boiler systems and the integration I program, NFPA won't allow it!

RANT=OFF OPINION=OFF

I thought I'd better close Tom's tags before this gets outta hand...

We've been over this "topic" before, and I've already voiced my opinion in THIS post.

Jeff, you (and others) are welcome to 'vent' about this, and it's probably good to revisit this topic on occasion so we stay current with the issues, but let's please not start yet another long AB bashing thread...

It's been a while since I've made a custom smiley. With all apologies to Ken, here's what I came up with...

beerchug

-Eric

I really like AB, don't get me wrong! Best PLC on the market! The truth is they do have the "my stuff don't stink attitude" and perhaps that is the only rag I got to chew on!
My latest pieve,, no never mind

RSView Anywhere is the selling point of this Packaging try to Pull an Rsview32 .gfx file into RSView ME, it won't happen

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For a time, I actually considered generating the entire project in PanelBuilder, and simply importing the PanelBuilder file into RSVMESE??XYZ.

I specially LOVED the comment

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As much as I would love to take credit for generating it, I'll give due credit to the Magnetek national sales manager in 1992, from whom I heard this statement at ISA.

few years back, at least after 3 days I had a stack of screens

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A few projects ago, I had the entire OI done, but, then again, I was using a Maple HMI 550. Very awesome product, if you're currently looking for an upgrade to PVP or VersaView.

they do have the "my stuff don't stink attitude" and

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No, not quite. Their sales attitude is: The Price Is The Price, unless you know the 'majik words'. Up to that point, you're just another farmer, feeding the ol' slop bucket with cash. Don't forget...they can be beat. Does anybody else here remember the big thump when AB tried to be 'AllenBradleyDirect.com' a few years ago? The silence was deafening.

Integrated Control Solutions, that only means they are trying to illiminate my job, System Integration Engineering

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I've not heard of ICS, but I assume its the same as GTS years ago. Bottom line: When it comes to integration, AB doesn't have the business structure or stomach for it. They are simply too big. For smallish integrators out there, its not bad enough that the suppliers are in competition, now it comes from the equipment manufacturers.

ERIC

About all I can say about your SMILEY is; "OUTSTANDING"

Then there is the AB Senior Engineer, who was also a farmer. He was always outstanding in his field.

A little humor there, very little.

regards all......casey

It can be a challenge, but...

All I can say is, you must be doing something wrong.

2. Crash a brand new computer, with a fresh install of MS XP Pro, CONSISTENTLY.

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I've installed every version from 1.5 to 3.1 on various PC's - both 2K and XP, and it has never caused a crash. You don't have SP2 on your XP machine, I hope. You have to uninstall any old versions of RSLinx, RSNetworx, Bizware, etc. before installing version 3.1.
I do believe that ver 1.5 was easier to use than the latest.
Most people only come to grief with setting up the comms, where there are several prat-falls.

The PanelView Plus hardware is actually pretty good,

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I recently installed a PVP1000 (DH+ to PLC5) and after experiencing the prat-falls, etc. and voicing some choice epithets finally got it working - only to have the unit die after 2 days in service.

I have been using RSView Studio since Version 1.0. My license number suggests I was about the 26th person to ever buy one.

Version 1.x was nice and solid, but had number of driver limitations.

Version 2.x is very usable...I have built 6 different projects using it with NO problems.

Version 3.0 and 3.1 introduced the Factory Talk functionality, with mixed results. When you get it right it is very cool and saves a huge amount of development time.

However it demands that you RTFM and all the tech notes. My upgrade to Version 3.1 was not smooth sailing, but almost ALL of the problems I experienced were self inflicted. Once correctly installed it has run just fine on new XP machine, bar one minor bug saving local message files.

Gerry's comments are as usual spot on.

The Rockwell people I have talked to acknowledge that the next Version of PVPlus needs to adddress a number of stability and usability issues, and they are aware that overall too many users have encountered frustrations.

90% of the issues encountered relate to RSLinx Enterprise and Factory Talk...which are major chunks of very NEW software... and yes I believe that Rockwell Software released this code on the market prematurely. Those of us with the experience and skills to work through the issues have quietly got on with building projects and not bothered making "OPIONIATED" posts.

My other observation is that RSView Studio is very much showing us how automation software is converging with the rest of the software world...and this is going to bring with it an alphabet soup of TLA's and a higher level of software skills than we those have been accustomed to getting by on. In the last 6 months I have pretty much had to self-learn VB.Net and SQL database query languages just to stay up to speed with client requirements...and that has made RSView Studio niggles I ran into with that seem trivial by comparison.

As for the rest of the childish anti-AB posturing that the rest of you have indulged in... sighs. According to you guys AB is the worst automation vendor in the world and that Seimens, Schneider, Omron or Koyo (insert you flavour of the month here) are all much better cheaper smarter and have never ever released a less than stellar product. This is so cool to know and I so grateful to have the error of my benighted ways shown to me.

jdbrandt said:

The alphabet soup of OPC/OLE/Enterprise/Topic/ME/SE/PVP/CE makes my head spin so much I need crib notes to keep it all straight. THIS STUFF WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE THIS BLASTED COMPLICATED.

Click to expand...

Ditto to that! In order to wrap my head around RSView SE, I've had to learn about TCP/IP, OPC, IIS, DCOM, Windows2000 Server, RSLinx... And on, and on. The strange thing I've noticed is how I seem to have fewer issues the longer I play with things, even though I don't FEEL like I'm doing anything different. Could this be like shocking a hamster until is runs a maze?

I've spent as much time as you (maybe more), with Rockwell support on site, trying to make things work. But, I've got to tell you, our biggest problems are with Windows, and not Rockwell's software. The problem is, Rockwell likes to exploit all the cutsie features that Microsoft puts into the operating system. When the next security patch comes along... BLAM!!! We've just had the thread about upgrading to WinXP SP2.

There are some things about this version of RSview (RSview SE) that scare me though. Like, the way it seems to hang on to "old" tag databases until every computer (or the correct computer?) has been rebooted. That just won't fly in our final design.

AK

I have to agree with PhillipW. I have noticed a huge change in the last 12 months on what you need to know to stay in business. The days are gone where you can load a new program and start efficiently programming within half an hour. We are all asking for more features but then complain if we can't utilise the program straight up. I have had problems with RSView ME but it was due to my ignorance of how to do something. I think it is probably worse to have standard panelview experience when you first tackle a PV+ as you tend to try to do things as you have always done them instead of reading the manual. Now I quite like the PV+ and it would be my interface of choice.
Regards Alan Case

As for the rest of the childish anti-AB posturing that the rest of you have indulged in... sighs. According to you guys AB is the worst automation vendor in the world and that Seimens, Schneider, Omron or Koyo (insert you flavour of the month here) are all much better cheaper smarter and have never ever released a less than stellar product. This is so cool to know and I so grateful to have the error of my benighted ways shown to me.

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OK. I'll consider my wrist slapped, but let me clarify myself. I believe that if you were to post a 'poll' of preferences for _ANY_ device or system, that most readers here have opinions regarding the 'best' of any bunch. Based on what? Based on their experiences with that product. No company exists making bad product, time after time. Ergo, AB, since it exists, must not be making bad product, time after time. Just in this case. And I'm not ready to trash all AB stuff, or even the PVP....just the PVP for _now_. What bothers the negative posters is the attitude and countenance of Allen Bradley with their 'this is the greatest thing since sliced bread and mother's milk' marketing approaches. We all expect to have to learn how to use new products. Funny us, though, we expect the products to actually work.

I am remembering the last time I was this frustrated with an automation product was my first Siemens S7 project. After it was all done I had (and continue to have) a deep respect for the introspection of the the Siemens engineers for their development of a wonderful product. (Yes, I'm serious).

As I say, even a blind dog finds a bone every so often. But a blind dog eats less than the other dogs every single day.

By The Way, what are niggles?

And, thanks to the other SP2 thread for the heads up. I'll be turning that off on Monday morning.

All I can say is, you must be doing something wrong.

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As tempting as it is to say something else, let me say this:

The system hangs when I try to exit, sometimes on the example project, sometimes on my experimental projects. The strange thing is that this product has all this alarming and messaging on the bottom of the project window...(of course, most of it is meaningless computer-speak). In this case, if there were a problem with my project (not yet successful in creating, by the way), or some other compile thing, don't you think the program error reporting window would have a message to that effect?

Jeff's second rule of programming: Diagnostics are great, so long as everything works.

And this computer has never had ANY software, from ANY vendor installed since it was 'factory powered up' (4 days ago). The AB stuff came off the MARCH 2004 DVD release, so there's no version stuff. I even installed the Factory Talk 1.07.00 Service Pack..... and I'm not even yet sure exactly what FactoryTalk is even doing!!!!

Oh, one other thing... there's a guy in the cubicle next to me.... same type of computer, same problems. And HE is orders of magnitude more patient, and a few weeks ahead of me, with a partially developed product from a different computer/project.