Do you also work under NDA?

I have signed NDA (non-disclosure agreements) for most of my work which means that I can never share any pictures, show how things work or discuss things that involves too much detail with anyone, besides that client. I assume a lot of you guys are in the same situation.

I sometimes find it limiting and boring, but I guess it's part of the job. What do you guys think? Are you in the same situation?

I've signed many. I've also learned over the years that things some companies believe to be proprietary trade secrets aren't really all that secret.

As Steve said I have also signed quite a few.

One thing to know is that proprietary ideas or trade secrets can not legally cover things "normally done in the trade or field"

I limit these NDA to the points that are of interest, and you can always ask the client what should be covered, and if needed comments, ask to sign the same disclosure by your provider (and obvious by your client.

having a trademark, copyright etc does not mean you cant talk about it.
a trade secret like dogfood from Mars should be kept. But the use of a PLC brand is not a secret.
It also works other way around, so they can not use your work in other machines, if you mention this they will back off.

We have a similar situation in the Distribution business and I have always made it a habit that any customer who does not have a NDA and I would like to share something from their application or system I always get permission first. In most cases permission is given. I do work with several who are in direct competition with each other and take care to keep things open and above board with them. But at most of those places the Engineers move around and co-mingle to the point that any real new ideas are hard to keep secret.

A good NDA exempts information that is generally known in the field or becomes known through no action of yours. A bad NDA is essentially unenforceable. Just like non-compete agreements, you cannot keep a professional from earning a living using his expertise and skill.

As Steve points out, the amount of truly proprietary knowledge in any organization is usually quite limited.

shooter said:

But the use of a PLC brand is not a secret.

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This could be a secret, if it affected their bargaining position with another vendor.

I've worked on projects where not only were the details of the project a secret, the fact that the project was even going on was a secret. One customer didn't want anyone to even know they were talking about automation, because then someone might be able to guess they were planning to expand. This could affect their competitive profile and therefore the bottom line. Another customer was concerned that if the union knew there was a project in the works, then that would have affected contract negotiations in a way that management considered negative.

Pete.S. said:

I have signed NDA (non-disclosure agreements) for most of my work which means that I can never share any pictures, show how things work or discuss things that involves too much detail with anyone, besides that client. I assume a lot of you guys are in the same situation.

I sometimes find it limiting and boring, but I guess it's part of the job. What do you guys think? Are you in the same situation?

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Most NDA's i have signed are for clients that *think* they are doing something clever, the only reason they think this is because they have no exposure to other people in the same industry and are so blinkered they use the same technology and architecture on every job and wont accept any deviations from spec, no matter if its a genuine improvement and/or cost saving, full stop.

The other reason is that they are so self important that an NDA gives them some sort of feeling of power.

The last NDA i signed the client has a full walk through of one of their facilities on YouTube, i learned more about them than i did reading any amount of drawings and specs. !!

I've worked on projects where not only were the details of the project a secret, the fact that the project was even going on was a secret. One customer didn't want anyone to even know they were talking about automation, because then someone might be able to guess they were planning to expand. This could affect their competitive profile and therefore the bottom line. Another customer was concerned that if the union knew there was a project in the works, then that would have affected contract negotiations in a way that management considered negative.

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I've encountered attitudes like that. Generally in shops that won't be around much longer. When the mood in the shop gets to the point that management feels it needs to keep secrets like that from the people on the shop floor, things have probably passed the point of no return. The workers have the attitude that management is out to screw them at every opportunity. Management has the attitude that the workers are out to screw the company at every opportunity. Both sides are partially correct.

tragically1969 said:

Most NDA's i have signed are for clients that *think* they are doing something clever, the only reason they think this is because they have no exposure to other people in the same industry and are so blinkered they use the same technology and architecture on every job and wont accept any deviations from spec, no matter if its a genuine improvement and/or cost saving, full stop.

The other reason is that they are so self important that an NDA gives them some sort of feeling of power.

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I tend to agree w/this, or it's just more to make the legal department happy. For the most part, not many customers I have worked have much sense of how automation works anyway. Most of the "IP" is really my company as every client gets the same automation standard less some equipment specific changes needed for the process. So code/objects/SCADA design isn't true to a customer but the way my company does it.

Projects are well underway before any automation gets involved, but I can understand the 'hush hush' nature of a project related to greenfield sites and expansions rather than process improvements or adding a new line here or there. But, gotta give everyone the warm fuzzy that their way is the best.

For us automation folk, pictures of control panels don't provide anything to anyone with some exceptions. Screen shots of snippets of code don't provide anything to anyone, you could make an argument that a SCADA screen shot could provide more detail but again w/o the big picture you can't really derive much from it all. As much as I want to share some projects with the crowd here, I tend to error on the side of caution.

I have multiple NDA's with companies.
Some agreements last for several years after you leave, some will remain in effect and never expire due to the nature of the business.
My current employer has several patents and processes that we have developed, so they are very strict.

regards,
james

Thanks guys! Some food for thought in your replies.

I appreciate it.

Regards,
Pete

I have worked under a reasonable non-compete agreement (time-limited, handful of direct competitors). A couple of things were clever solutions but hardly trade secrets.

I now work under government funding. Anyone can look at anything (with the right FOIA paperwork). It is kind of liberating to be able to talk about what we're doing without worry.

Timbert said:

... Anyone can look at anything (with the right FOIA paperwork)...

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Timbert,

Obviously you don't work at Area 51 (if it exists, of course)

Aabeck said:

Timbert,

Obviously you don't work at Area 51 (if it exists, of course)

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...or for the DNC!