Large hmi or touch screen 22" or bigger

Looking for a large hmi similar to 22" Siemens comforts panel but which can be mounted horizontal in a console table top style. The Siemens hmi,s warranty is invalidated if any less than 35 degrees from the horizontal for reasons of heat dissipation.
if not a HMI a touch screen may be alternative with wincc runtime and ipc.

thanks.

Use a cab cooler and/or a blower?
Not saying you should but I've run siemens TP's in some pretty horrendous conditions of humidity and temperature because the panel maker was too cheap to install panel chillers and they have been fine.

Would be much cheaper to use an industrial touch panel and a RT app than a big TP

For another client we have already fitted two large Siemens touch screens with Siemens IPCs running a SCADA system. Siemens touch screens have the same 35 degree limit on the angle of mounting but these have been working fine for the last five years and are virtually horizontal 10-15 degrees so I don't think there would be a problem using these.
I suppose the HMI's does have a processor so will generate more heat than a touch screen display.

Our current client is aware of the angle mount specifications of both the Siemens HMI and Siemens touch screen displays and is not happy using either if Siemens will not cover them under the warranty.

I don't think the extra expense of a cab cooler and the maintenance involved with these would be feasible either.

In the specs it says:

maximum permissible angle of inclination without external ventilation 35°.

Click to expand...

So if you add a fan inside the enclosure you can install it horisontally.

I would also consider a regular touch screen connected to an IPC with a WinCC RT.
Just the price of a TP2200 (6500 €) makes you consider alternatives. Even if you go this route, you should consider a fan in th enclosure.

Also, placing touch screen completely horisontal sounds odd. What could be the reason ?

The console desk is existing and I think has a slight incline 10-15 degrees. The end client wants to replace a large bank of toggle switches with a touch screen but there are analogue displays above the switches which will be left in position so it needs to fit the current profile of the console so these are still visible.

"maximum permissible angle of inclination without external ventilation 35°." Is this from the manual I don't see why we can't fit some ventilation to the panel I'll contact our Siemens Rep and see if this is the case.

It is from the technical specs that I found online.

Consider an IFP2200 and connect this to an IPC with a bundled WinCC RT.
The IFP2200 list price is 1500 €, 5000 € less than the TP2200. For that you can get a 427D with a WinCC RT bundle, or a 1515SP with WinCC RT bundle, and have money to spare.

And if someone puts a knee through the screen, the replacement only costs another 1500 and not 6500 !

Just had this back from Siemens Technical support UK.

"As discussed with forced ventilation a higher cabinet temperature can be achieved but the mounting angle cannot be increased past the recommended 35 degrees."

ricoghardforth said:

Just had this back from Siemens Technical support UK.

"As discussed with forced ventilation a higher cabinet temperature can be achieved but the mounting angle cannot be increased past the recommended 35 degrees."

Click to expand...

Doesn't make much sense.... surely by definition you're going to aim to reduce the enclosure temperature, not achieve a higher temp?

I would be personally happy with a positive ventilation of the enclosure at the highest point (push-pull) and a couple of blowers to direct air up through the HMI.

Going by what the spec says:

maximum permissible angle of inclination without external ventilation 35°.

Click to expand...

Then I interpret it as either you must not go less inclination than 35°, or you need external ventilation.

s discussed with forced ventilation a higher cabinet temperature can be achieved but the mounting angle cannot be increased past the recommended 35 degrees

Click to expand...

This simply does not make sense at all. If for example there is 70°C inside the cabinet, then forced ventilation will help, but not enough to keep the screen less than 55°C.
On the other hand, if the temperature is "normal" but the inclination is not enough, then forced ventilation will help getting the airflow through the screen for sufficient cooling.

I am quite sure you can safely install the screen at 15° with forced ventilation.

Sounds like this a heat dissipation and certification problem.
Siemens (or any HMI vendor) will test and certify for a range of angles. But they are not designed for face up, 0 degrees horizontal.

If you look at the back of the HMI you will see vents to help cool it down; using air convection. Putting the HMI face up, 0 degrees with horizontal, is the absolute worst. The heat just floats up through the unit getting trapped in the sealed touch screen area.
They rate those for 0-55C and 5-95% humidity (or close to). 55C at 95% humidity installed flat horizontal is not going to last long.

Is it going to be a problem for you? Who knows.
But Siemens did not test beyond the 35 degree angle, or they did and the results were bad. If they were to say that you can use it at 0 degrees to the horizontal then they had to test and certify it to that; which is more time and money IF the mechanical design supported it.
The most likely thing to happen is that the screen backlight life will be reduced, greatly.

You can help minimize that damage by:
- increasing the angle as much as possible: 90 degree vertical being best
- reduce the backlight intensity down to 50% or less
- split the HMI: ie. use an IPC + touchscreen instead of combined HMI unit
- add cooling to the cabinet (but now you have moving parts, which was a benefit of the HMI)

ricoghardforth said:

Just had this back from Siemens Technical support UK.

"As discussed with forced ventilation a higher cabinet temperature can be achieved but the mounting angle cannot be increased past the recommended 35 degrees."

Click to expand...

Seems likely.
When they certify the HMI to 45C, they already have some allowance to go hotter. Lots of electrical components are rated to 85C.
But with the HMI the heat from the computer and display screen has to go somewhere.

21" Comfort Panel
Power consumption, typ. 53 W
MTBF backlighting (at 25 °C) 30 000 h @ vertical in landscape

Landscape and vertical: max temp 45C
Landscape and 35° angle: max temp 40C
Portrait and 35° angle: max temp 35C

0° angle = max temp a lot less than 35C


Just using Portrait mode at 35° angle will de-rate the backlight life below 30,000 hours. Even if the cabinet temperature is identical.
Specs:
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/pd/161314?pdti=td&pnid=14742&lc=en-WW

ricoghardforth said:

Looking for a large hmi similar to 22" Siemens comforts panel but which can be mounted horizontal in a console table top style. The Siemens hmi,s warranty is invalidated if any less than 35 degrees from the horizontal for reasons of heat dissipation.
if not a HMI a touch screen may be alternative with wincc runtime and ipc.

thanks.

Click to expand...

We have several Hope Industrial 23" touchscreens here. Seem to hold up well out in the plant. Not sure about the mounting specs:

http://www.hopeindustrial.com/ml23_panelmount_industrial_monitor.htm

You could get one of these and run the HMI on a PC
http://www.newegg.com/Touch-Screen-Monitors/SubCategory/ID-514

I second Dginbufflo's suggestion, I have used numerous Hope touchscreens and have had no problem with them. Decent $$$ range also.

i've used these in tabletop mode before w/ some forced ventilation.
http://www.elotouch.com/Products/IDS/3202L/default.asp