Ul

The place I work for has become a UL508A panel shop. It wasn't cheap to join the club. After receiving none of the training we were promised, my field inspector, who as I understand it is supposed to answer questions, just keeps repeating "it must be listed for use in a panel."

Cases in point:
I want to mount a bracket to the inside of the wall of a NEMA4 cabinet, while maintaining a NEMA4 rating. Anyone with any sense would simply use the screws with the o-ring that comes under the head and move on, but the inspector is insisting that I must use "listed screws." No such thing exists. I even checked with Hubbell, just to be sure. The application engineer actually laughed when I told him my issue.

Cable glands are listed, but UL won't actually tell me what they're listed and tested for, so I have no idea until the inspector shows up whether or not they're actually OK for use with a NEMA4 panel. The cut sheet says they're good for NEMA4, but UL told me that cut sheets mean nothing, and they're only good to what UL says they are. Too bad I can't find out...

I need an Ethernet bulkhead passthrough that maintains a NEMA4 rating. Too bad I can't find one that UL actually says is OK. I can find plenty that are listed, but not what they're actually listed for.

I'm coming to the conclusion that becoming a UL panel shop was a mistake. This whole thing strikes me as arbitrary and Kafka-esque.

<rant off/>

UL 508 is a #%@#^% racket. It is even worse if your inspector is a %$%&$&^%*

We had similar issues, and ended up hiring a consultant - a former inspector who escaped with his brain intact. He gave us a work around.

A couple of tricks he taught us. For electrical stuff, if you have a ground fault circuit interrupter at the beginning of a circuit you can "have the other ends of the wires in a bucket of gasoline". If you have to have non-UL components put them in a separate non-listed panel, and make the contractor field wire between them. For panel penetration drill the holes, use UL listed closures, and ship the bracket and component loose for field install and wring.

Verify with your brain dead inspector if the problem is that the component isn't listed, or if is listed but not in your company's folder. One of the UL rackets is charging you to have listed components added to your folder. (Non-profit my butt.)

Remember, when you are a UL shop every panel you make doesn't need to be listed. If the customer doesn't call for that magic sticker, don't use it.

I agree that every panel doesn't have to be listed. We have internal pressure to list this "because we're a 508A panel shop now."

I just did a large project for a European client that had to meet CE. While the paperwork was a bit daunting, a manufacturer/builder can self-certify without having to be blessed by the overlords. CE actually states that "good engineering practice and judgment" can be used as a guide for suitability. The panels functioned beautifully, client was happy, and they even cleared French customs without a hitch.

If you use a CE listed component within its published ratings, you're good to go without question. If you need to use a non-CE component, then the above mentioned "engineering judgment" comes into play, and you're fine if you have the math to back it up.

Strangely, I don't hear about European panels burning to the ground too much. In fact, they seem MUCH more concerned with actual machine safety than N. America.

I realize part of this mess is because we didn't receive any training like we were promised so I don't necessarily know how to navigate the mess, but it shouldn't take me the better part of a day to find a NEMA4 Ethernet bulkhead connector that's been blessed by the overlords. I think I have one now, but I actually can't tell for sure. At least UL will fine us if they "catch" us trying to use a component they deem unworthy, even if by mistake.

Going down this road was a mistake, methinks. I shouldn't have to go through gymnastics like field mounting components to do something anyone with half a brain can see meets design intent.

Tom Jenkins said:

Verify with your brain dead inspector if the problem is that the component isn't listed, or if is listed but not in your company's folder. One of the UL rackets is charging you to have listed components added to your folder. (Non-profit my butt.)

Click to expand...

It's not helping that no one there is returning calls for the last two days. Probably the holiday weekend, but still...

I fell your pain, just not as acutely. We contract with UL508 panel shops to build our panels for us. If the issues move into design related issues we have to get involved. It can be rather infuriating to get the answers to design questions that you need.

Originally posted by rpoet:

...who as I understand it is supposed to answer questions...

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Well, kind of. UL is attempting to avoid the "fox-in-charge-of-the-henhouse" issue with this one. The inspector should be able to tell you what subsection you are violating and why he believes you are in violation. but he can't tell you what you need to do to fix it. At that point he is designing something he is inspecting and the separation of church and state goes right out the window.

Originally posted by rpoet:

... just keeps repeating "it must be listed for use in a panel."

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This is a fun one, too. It just takes alot of reading to get past this one. UL508A SA1 lists all the category control numbers that apply to devices described in UL508A. You should be able to find the UL listing number of any device you are dealing with. Enter that number on the UL website and the UL listing certificate will come up. On that certificate you will find the category control number. If the category control number is located in SA1 and you are using it in accordance with the usage shown in SA1, take a copy of SA1 and the UL certificate, roll them up and jam them up the inspector's @$$. You may still need to be procedure described but you can use them.

That leads me to...

Originally posted by Tom Jenkens:

One of the UL rackets is charging you to have listed components added to your folder.

Click to expand...

As far as I know you shouldn't need to procedure describe a listed component. That is at the heart of the distinction between listed and recognized. A listed component is designed in such a way that you really can't misapply it. It is in essence self-protected from a UL perspective. Recognized components require specific usage methods and, very possibly, other components to insure UL compliance. Thus the procedure description and the file maintenance that goes with it. It is one of the reasons our UL508A panel shop tends to hold us to a select group of components or our build cost starts to go way up.

Originally posted by Tom Jenkins:

If you have to have non-UL components put them in a separate non-listed panel, and make the contractor field wire between them. For panel penetration drill the holes, use UL listed closures, and ship the bracket and component loose for field install and wring.

Click to expand...

If you can get your customer to accept this then I want your customer list. None of my customer would. If this REALLY needs to be UL inspected (as opposed to something that simply satisfies a corporate standard) then you have simply kicked the issue down the road. The completed installation will be inspected. When the inspector comes you your un-stickered enclosure, it will get inspected...and it will fail. At that point your phone will begin to ring ceaselessly.

But this is a HUGE point:

Originally posted by Tom Jenkins:

Remember, when you are a UL shop every panel you make doesn't need to be listed. If the customer doesn't call for that magic sticker, don't use it.

Click to expand...

We charge for UL508A approval. Our panel shop passes on their cost for UL certification to every customer that request a UL stickered panel, not to mention the cost of the report if ANYTHING is wrong. We pass that on to our customer. It tends to keep the customers at bay who simply think a UL inspected panel MUST be better and want that just because.

Finally,

Originally posted by Tom Jenkins:

For electrical stuff, if you have a ground fault circuit interrupter at the beginning of a circuit you can...

Click to expand...

(insert your chosen violation here).

UL is getting a whole lot tougher on this these days. Back in the day this used to be part of a strategy to allow the use of non-listed or recognized non-power components in a UL design. Not so much anymore. We use Toss heat sealers occasionally. They make a great product...just no UL listed. We have gotten to the point that we can't use them anymore in UL application.

Keith

These guys have UL Recognized Fasteners: http://apmhexseal.com/
My UL Inspector told me about these guys.

We are also a UL Panel shop. It is a pain to say the least but I have been very lucky in that my UL Inspector is a good guy and just wants to help the best he can.

I was finally able to talk with someone at UL on Friday who isn't brain-dead, is technically knowledgeable, and was a genuine pleasure to speak with.

Apparently, I can use a connector that isn't 508A recognized, as long as it has the appropriate Type rating, because the connector is considered part of the enclosure, not the panel.

I can also apparently use an IP-rated connector without a Type rating. I will probably have to list the panel as Type 1, but can call it NEMA 4. I was told UL is working on a 3rd addition of 508A, where they will have a cross-reference between Type ratings and IP ratings. They're tired of getting these questions too, I guess.

Jumping through the semantics and paperwork hoops isn't so frustrating as having to talk to six different people before I found one who was willing to have an intelligent conversation that actually addressed my questions. UL needs to up their game on customer support, or they may eventually find themselves irrelevant if they keep pushing people to other testing labs. Paying lots of $$ to be a panel shop only to be ignored is not the way to retain loyalty.

I'm happy I got AN answer finally. At least I know who to call now with questions.

-rpoet