Drive Repair/Refurbishing

Sobrante

Member
Join Date
Aug 2016
Location
Texas
Posts
11
Hello,

Does anyone know of some resources for how to refurbish VFDs? Looking to do it myself. We have a bunch of Powerflex 4/40s that are getting old and fault out on overvoltage to the point of not being able to start. Management isn't interested in installing new ones properly (i.e. VFD rated cable, reactors, etc).


Thanks for reading,

Ben
 
Hello,

Does anyone know of some resources for how to refurbish VFDs? Looking to do it myself. We have a bunch of Powerflex 4/40s that are getting old and fault out on overvoltage to the point of not being able to start. Management isn't interested in installing new ones properly (i.e. VFD rated cable, reactors, etc).


Thanks for reading,

Ben

The answer to the first part is that most of the internal parts are proprietary, and, drawings of assemblies, and availability of individual parts might be troublesome.
..
But, the bigger issue here is what you appear to be attempting to solve.
I think that the fact that the PF4 and PF40 are "old" has little to do with them tripping. You simply must install line reactors, at a minimum, and not over drive or over decelerate them, in order for them to work....at all.
I'll leave it to others to comment on the relative performance / non-performance of PF4's.
Now, yes, over time, the capacitors can and will 'dry out', so, if all you want to do is 'extend the life' of 'old' drives, you could, in theory, set up a shop with replacement capacitors. But, all you'll be doing is replacing the capacitors on a drive that isn't properly rated for the job, or installed in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations and specifications.
 
Hello,

Does anyone know of some resources for how to refurbish VFDs? Looking to do it myself. We have a bunch of Powerflex 4/40s that are getting old and fault out on overvoltage to the point of not being able to start. Management isn't interested in installing new ones properly (i.e. VFD rated cable, reactors, etc).


Thanks for reading,

Ben

Give these guys a call...I was at their shop once, and if I recall correctly, they refurbish drives.

http://www.innovativeidm.com/
 
Noisy line inputs can also be a problem as the caps charge to the peak when unloaded and could result in over voltage.
You did not mention if the problem was while running or startup.
When running the main problem is overhauling loads pumping power back into the cap bank.
Line and load reactors are good investment.
As to investment from management the process must be pretty low margin to not invest in reliability.
What does down time cost in relation to drives?
 
The answer to the first part is that most of the internal parts are proprietary, and, drawings of assemblies, and availability of individual parts might be troublesome.
..
But, the bigger issue here is what you appear to be attempting to solve.
I think that the fact that the PF4 and PF40 are "old" has little to do with them tripping. You simply must install line reactors, at a minimum, and not over drive or over decelerate them, in order for them to work....at all.
I'll leave it to others to comment on the relative performance / non-performance of PF4's.
Now, yes, over time, the capacitors can and will 'dry out', so, if all you want to do is 'extend the life' of 'old' drives, you could, in theory, set up a shop with replacement capacitors. But, all you'll be doing is replacing the capacitors on a drive that isn't properly rated for the job, or installed in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations and specifications.

Thank you jbrandt. I'll pick up a line reactor for one of them and see how test it on the next one that causes problems with overvoltage faults.
 
Noisy line inputs can also be a problem as the caps charge to the peak when unloaded and could result in over voltage.
You did not mention if the problem was while running or startup.
When running the main problem is overhauling loads pumping power back into the cap bank.
Line and load reactors are good investment.
As to investment from management the process must be pretty low margin to not invest in reliability.
What does down time cost in relation to drives?


Thank you redbarron. I think they are reluctant because of the number of drives we have (200+) as well as they haven't ever installed them with line or load reactors, or with VFD rated cable.

They fault out when restarting. It is normally pretty bad if we try coming up after a line has been shut down.
 
They fault out when restarting. It is normally pretty bad if we try coming up after a line has been shut down.

So they fault on OVERVOLTAGE when you are restarting them?

How long have the drives been stopped before an attempt to restart has been made?

What is the application?
Can the load drive the motor?
 
So they fault on OVERVOLTAGE when you are restarting them?

How long have the drives been stopped before an attempt to restart has been made?

What is the application?
Can the load drive the motor?

Thank you GTUnit. The drives are for conveyors. The time that the drives have been off for before they fail varies. They have failed when they have been off for a a minute or two when the line has backed up, in which case they may have a load on them. They've also failed when the line has been down for a couple of hours or a couple of days, in this case they would not be loaded.

It's usually a progression for a drive being deemed as having failed. It will start with a fault that will clear when power has been cycled. After a while it will require more restarts. When we swap them out, they fault when trying to start with the motor leads disconnected. I've changed the auto restart tries parameter to get around cycling power when a drive becomes problematic and it does get rid of some down time, but the end result is the same.

The drives are sized according to the motor they are driving and the motors do run, if that is what you meant in your last question.
 
With the last question I was asking:
When brakes are turned off, is it possible for gravity to turn the conveyor motor even if the VFD is off? Like if you had some steep decline conveyor.

Is OverVoltage the only fault you are seeing? What others?

What is the (Deceleration Time) parameter set to?

What is the measured Line Voltage feeding the drive?
 
Last edited:
Sorry about that. To answer your question: No. Gravity can't cause the motor to turn when the VFD is off.

Yes, the only faults we get are overvoltage on drives that beginning to fail.
 
1) there is nothing repairable on a PF4 or PF40, they are all surface mount single board (for the most part) and the power devices are IPMs, meaning all of the diodes and transistors are in a single potted unit. Some people attempt to do repairs on surface mount boards, they generally spend more fixing them than they do replacing them.

2) The only possible thing that can change as drives get old is that the caps fail, in which case the drive would stop functioning, or at best MAYBE trip on UNDER voltage, not OVER voltage. So that's not it, and to replace them without finding the problem is pointless.

3) The first thing I would start looking at is what has changed? If it NEVER did this in the past, but started doing it recently, what's different? If on the other hand it has always done this, then it's a design flaw from the outset. Being that it is getting attributed to age, I'd think it was working fine for a long time, so again, what's changed? Even something you might think is innocuous can have effects nobody considered. For example, lets say that in the past, the conveyors were used less and never tripped while loaded, so never had to re-start while loaded. It's then likely that when you re-start your conveyors, inertia in the load ON the conveyors is causing the motors to regenerate as soon as they start to move. I've seen this before; the infeed system that is putting load ON the conveyor has been not doing so when off, so when re-started, that end of the conveyor is empty, but the other end, possibly going down hill, is full of product. So as soon as you re-start, the lack of load at one end means the downhill portion accelerates beyond what the drive is telling it to and turns the motors into generators, which trips the drives on over voltage.

Again, that's just an example to make you think through of what MIGHT have changed when it started happening.
 
1) there is nothing repairable on a PF4 or PF40, they are all surface mount single board (for the most part) and the power devices are IPMs, meaning all of the diodes and transistors are in a single potted unit. Some people attempt to do repairs on surface mount boards, they generally spend more fixing them than they do replacing them.

2) The only possible thing that can change as drives get old is that the caps fail, in which case the drive would stop functioning, or at best MAYBE trip on UNDER voltage, not OVER voltage. So that's not it, and to replace them without finding the problem is pointless.

3) The first thing I would start looking at is what has changed? If it NEVER did this in the past, but started doing it recently, what's different? If on the other hand it has always done this, then it's a design flaw from the outset. Being that it is getting attributed to age, I'd think it was working fine for a long time, so again, what's changed? Even something you might think is innocuous can have effects nobody considered. For example, lets say that in the past, the conveyors were used less and never tripped while loaded, so never had to re-start while loaded. It's then likely that when you re-start your conveyors, inertia in the load ON the conveyors is causing the motors to regenerate as soon as they start to move. I've seen this before; the infeed system that is putting load ON the conveyor has been not doing so when off, so when re-started, that end of the conveyor is empty, but the other end, possibly going down hill, is full of product. So as soon as you re-start, the lack of load at one end means the downhill portion accelerates beyond what the drive is telling it to and turns the motors into generators, which trips the drives on over voltage.

Again, that's just an example to make you think through of what MIGHT have changed when it started happening.

Thank you for the response jraef. It must be a design flaw. Just been here over a year now but the drive failures seem to be a progression.

There are several flaws but my guess would be that the motor leads are THHN and ALL start out in the same wireway (worst case is 50+ in one wireway) leaving the electrical panel before separating off into conduit runs. You can read over 30V from induction on a conductor. At least they didn't run comms in there as well!

I was hoping to get the same knowledge as these shops that offer to refurbish drives and even give you a 18 month warranty. I guess for now I'll keep on writing PF 525 upgrade instructions for mechanics. :p
 
If they are running separate THHN conductors all in the same conduits, the mutual induction on each conductor could definitely explain this. An extra 30V on one conductor is just going to bounce back into the drive (and motor), adding to any reflected wave issues. I have seen that take out a motor when there were input and output cables sharing just a 25ft section of the same cable tray. In that case there was no known damage to the drive, probably because they had a load reactor.
 

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