Servo system with Mitsubishi PLC and equipment

Hello everybody, I'm new here, both on this forum and world of PLC programming; got a student job last week at company which uses Mitsubishi equipment.
Problem is that I have zero experience with Mitsubishi, and now I think we haven't even scratched the surface at my college with PLCs (we programmed, but it was all simulations in Siemens S7/TIA).

Now I got my first task, I have to program(?) a labeling machine.

So there is a conveyer which drives foil which needs to get labeled. Speed of foil on conveyer is measured using encoder and it's changeable, speed of labeling machine must be synchronized with foil speed to labels can be labeled correctly. There is a marker on a foil which can be detected, it's a signal which triggers servomotor that drives labeling maching to start labeling. There's also a sensor which indicates end of a label (there are two types of labels, long and short, I'm not sure if that means there are just two different label lengths, I don't think so).

Boss told me that main problem is that motor which drives labeling machine needs to react in less than 1ms, I have no idea how to achieve this. (interrupts are probably best stuff, but he says even then communication between PLC, Simple Motion module and servo drive is slower than 1ms).

Equipment they use is:
Servo motor HG-KN73JK 700W
Servo drive MR-JE-70B
PLC FX5U-32MT/ESS
Modul FX5-40SSC-S
Panel GT2103-PMBD


So, I don't ask you to solve me this, just tell me where to look? How to start?
How do I parametrize the Simple Motion module in GX Works3, I think I can write PLC logic, it's nothing complicated for this case. How do I even test if it's faster than 1ms?

I have added .pdf which explain how it should work, it's not in English, but I don't think it will cause problems. Would post pics but they're too large for this forum.

I would recommend you reach out to your Mitsubishi distributor for some assistance, on the surface this seems like a simple application however there are many steps to walk through to get this to work. You won't find much help here, I don't think we have very many Mitsubishi experts.

I spent last year working for a Mitsubishi distributor, and only scratched the surface of motion. Needless to say I left that company, and realized the Mitsubishi world wasn't for me. I think they make excellent motion control equipment and VFDs, but the PLC side was just to.....blah, overly tedious, not very intuitive.

Once you have all the servo items configured correctly, it sounds like a simple on/off motor control. The problem, getting it configured correctly and if you haven't used it before spend time ready every manual you can and figuring it out, or ask for assistance.

Paully's5.0 said:

I would recommend you reach out to your Mitsubishi distributor for some assistance, on the surface this seems like a simple application however there are many steps to walk through to get this to work. You won't find much help here, I don't think we have very many Mitsubishi experts.

I spent last year working for a Mitsubishi distributor, and only scratched the surface of motion. Needless to say I left that company, and realized the Mitsubishi world wasn't for me. I think they make excellent motion control equipment and VFDs, but the PLC side was just to.....blah, overly tedious, not very intuitive.

Once you have all the servo items configured correctly, it sounds like a simple on/off motor control. The problem, getting it configured correctly and if you haven't used it before spend time ready every manual you can and figuring it out, or ask for assistance.

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I think my company is Mitsubishi distributor for this part of world.
I was reading manuals, and there are SSC40 FBs you can use to JOG servormotor in Simple Motion so I guess I can adjust speed and accel/decel, I think I might read pulses from encoder using SPD/C235 commands and get conveyer speed this way. Problem is apparently FBs used to communicate with Simple Motion can't be used in interrupts, and I guess execution time when you used structures as FBs can't be really fast. I have zero idea how to make this under 1ms, this seems like expert question for me. Plus I haven't seen this in real world, I think I might go on site next week.
There's no one to assist me, boss is away until Monday and other guy (who's more sales engineer) comes back at Monday. I'm only guy beside secretary in company right now.

Ouch...

Do you have direct support from Mitsubishi? Our company did, if we needed some additional training/support we'd bring in Mitsubishi to assist.

Paully's5.0 said:

Ouch...

Do you have direct support from Mitsubishi? Our company did, if we needed some additional training/support we'd bring in Mitsubishi to assist.

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Got some material from Mitsubishi academy, I'm supposed to learn until I become useful.
Problem is that they're having shortage of people (apparently something was happening last year, secretary indicated something 'bout it), today I was asked to check out what parameters should be set in frequency inverter to do something required by client, though I never set any Mitsubishi inverter, just read manual about FR-A800 last week, and this was FR-D540.
I need to start delivering asap, it seems.

I don't think I need to solve this (some other guy is on it, in HQ of company, dunno if I'll get to know him in future), I think it's a more of a test for me.

Interesting, at the same time I moved on from my previous company (early spring) Mitsubishi Electric here in the states seemed to have made some cuts, and some good technical people had left just prior.

I've found the Mitsubishi Electric website to be pretty useful for finding manuals and such. Nice thing about the drives is the parameters don't change much from model to model. Biggest issue is that there are many parameters that require power cycles to take. If you forget to do that you spin in circles. I've had to completely reset the drive parameters and start all over a few times because the settings didn't "take".

Had one customer with a complete written procedure for their needs, granted they were also using the PLC feature of the drive with required additional setup.

Good luck!!

The Mitsubishi website, at least the US one, has all sorts of manuals and some sample code to get you started. BUT you have to register and login to see it. If you aren't logged in, you'll only see some brochures. I downloaded a couple different sample projects specifically dealing with the FX5U and simple motion when I was working on my first project with this equipment several months ago.

Mitsubishi also now has a manual application called e-Manual Viewer for all the new hardware that automatically updates your manuals and allows cross-manual searches. Very useful, though I don't think the servos are in there yet.

To parameterize the motion module, you'll have to add it to the hardware configuration in GX Works 3, then it will appear in the Parameter folder where you can assign the module parameters and access the simple motion configuration.

What exactly is meant by 1ms reaction? Would this be registration of the label? You'll probably have to wire the registration sensor directly into the motion module to get close to that, at least that's how the older hardware worked. I haven't done registration with this setup yet.

doomsword said:

got a student job last week at company which uses Mitsubishi equipment.

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We hired a senior college student too. He too is working with the new Mitsubishi PLC. The software is too new to trust.

Now I got my first task, I have to program(?) a labeling machine.

Click to expand...

Not an easy task due to the need to synchronize the labels with the foil.

Boss told me that main problem is that motor which drives labeling machine needs to react in less than 1ms, I have no idea how to achieve this.

Click to expand...

Does the PLC and motor support IEC 6113-3 motion commands? There is a command called Clutch By Distance that should work with some additional tricks.

(interrupts are probably best stuff, but he says even then communication between PLC, Simple Motion module and servo drive is slower than 1ms).

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You are right. This won't work.

Equipment they use is:
Servo motor HG-KN73JK 700W
Servo drive MR-JE-70B
PLC FX5U-32MT/ESS
Modul FX5-40SSC-S
Panel GT2103-PMBD

Click to expand...

I don't know anything about this equipment but I know how I would approach the problem.

So, I don't ask you to solve me this, just tell me where to look? How to start?
How do I parametrize the Simple Motion module in GX Works3, I think I can write PLC logic, it's nothing complicated for this case. How do I even test if it's faster than 1ms?

Click to expand...

You can't rely on the PLC for this kind of response.
You need help from someone that has done these things before. You won't find the solution in books.

I have added .pdf which explain how it should work, it's not in English, but I don't think it will cause problems. Would post pics but they're too large for this forum.

Click to expand...

It is easy enough to figure out what you are doing.

So first, I have some question.

1. I am assuming the encoder input goes directly to the motion controller? It better.

2. What about the leading and lagging marker detector? Are they the same detector? If they are the same, how do you tell them apart? Are they both wired to the motion controller? How fast are they? They better respond to the markers very fast. Look the response time up and tell us.

3. Here is the trick. Can you use the leading marker as a z pulse for the encoder so every time the leading marker is detected to encoder counts can be reset to some number of counts or position. Note, the z pulse will reset the counts even if they marker is detected between scans so it is very accurate. If so the clutch by distance function block will work well IF this new GX3 supports it which I doubt.

The idea is that the encoder counts are going to be used to anticipate the motion and do gearing using a clutch function. The motion controller module must do all the work. The PLC is too slow. The PLC should configure the motion module and be the HMI interface but no more. All fast inputs MUST be connected to the motion controller module.

I have more questions but I will wait for the answers. Answer them all thoroughly. I don't like asking twice.

I could do this application easily in a hour or so with our controller since I already have code written. It isn't that much different than a flying shear
Instead of cutting the foil at even increments you are putting a label on the foil but the label machine must be synchronized to the foil just like the flying shear must be synchronized to the sheet metal. I doubt the Mitsubishi has a command like our advanced gear move.

http://deltamotion.com/peter/Videos/FlyingShear/SimpleFlyingShear.mp4

Peter Nachtwey said:

We hired a senior college student too. He too is working with the new Mitsubishi PLC. The software is too new to trust.

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This was my experience, GXWorks 3 = buggy, typical tasks didn't work correctly (copy/paste, find/replace), and the blue background w/red text is a killer on the eyes.

Peter Nachtwey said:

Does the PLC and motor support IEC 6113-3 motion commands? There is a command called Clutch By Distance that should work with some additional tricks.

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Mitsubishi does have canned IEC 6113-3 motion function blocks, but I believe you have to download them separately from Mitsubishi and I'm not sure if it encompasses the entire library.

Peter Nachtwey said:

The idea is that the encoder counts are going to be used to anticipate the motion and do gearing using a clutch function. The motion controller module must do all the work. The PLC is too slow. The PLC should configure the motion module and be the HMI interface but no more. All fast inputs MUST be connected to the motion controller module.

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The "simple" motion card for Mitusbishi relies on the PLC to execute the motion function blocks and associated logic. The motion module then interfaces with the servo amp for the control. The encoder would be wired directly to the servo amplifier as a secondary feedback.

The "advanced" motion card encapsulates everything for the motion control, and the PLC is nothing more than a gateway.

Peter Nachtwey said:

I don't know anything about this equipment...

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Neither does the OP!

Peter Nachtwey said:

...but I know how I would approach the problem.

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OP - Get ready for the University of Peter Nachtwey!

Paully's5.0 said:

This was my experience, GXWorks 3 = buggy, typical tasks didn't work correctly (copy/paste, find/replace), and the blue background w/red text is a killer on the eyes.

Click to expand...

I made an earlier post this week ranting about GX3 not having the equivalent of a AB COP block or bit copy. Where did my previous post/rant go? I did a search using Google and site:www.plctalk.net. That finds everything
GX3 is too new.
We too are wasting a college intern's time trying to make a work around for GX3's lack of a AB COP command.

What ticks me off is releasing products that don't work and expecting customers to debug and make the works arounds for all the basic deficiencies and bugs.

College interns seem to get the jobs no one else wants to do.

Thanks all for the help, I will bring more info tomorrow if possible, it's evening here and I'm not at work atm. I have no info on physics of the system (except max conveyor speed is 1.2 m/s), I planned to create some kind of plan of how to approach a problem and ask boss if it makes sense.

I figured out how to parametrize Simple Motion module in GX Works3, found it in a manual, it explains how things are distributed in memory for SM module, and I figured out what is what. Module offers few FBs that appear in GX Works3, which can be used for various things, but I'd rather write directly to registers in SM, to reduce execution time, if that seems like good idea to you?

Don't need to check all the stuff as it is done in FBs, I would probably need to change JOG speed, and probably accel/decel ramps parameters. FBs that do this check more stuff and take a lot of steps because of it, so that's why they can't be used in interrupts. This parameters are usually set in GX Works3 and written to SM module, since, I guess, for most applications these parameters don't need to change.

I will ask boss more about it, he told me I will work on this, I spend last week and this one to read manuals, I've read thousands of pages, I actually started to get some things out of it.

P.S. there's a parameter called bias speed at start, if I set something there, I force servomotor to 'start' at some speed (it accelerates as fast as possible to set bias speed?)

Peter Nachtwey said:

I made an earlier post this week ranting about GX3 not having the equivalent of a AB COP block or bit copy. Where did my previous post/rant go? I did a search using Google and site:www.plctalk.net. That finds everything
GX3 is too new.
We too are wasting a college intern's time trying to make a work around for GX3's lack of a AB COP command.

Click to expand...

I saw that post, then quickly closed my browser and found some work to do.

Peter Nachtwey said:

What ticks me off is releasing products that don't work and expecting customers to debug and make the works arounds for all the basic deficiencies and bugs.

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To me GX Works 3 is 10 years behind what AB is doing Logix/Studio/Designer 5000. I was at a Mitsubishi Technical event last year, there was a session on GX Works 3 specifically "Labels". The presenter from Mitsubishi really didn't understand the concept very well. With my AB background, I could have faked the Mitsubishi part of it and done a better job of presenting the topic w/o preparing for it.

Peter Nachtwey said:

College interns seem to get the jobs no one else wants to do.

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Do they serve any other purpose?? Thankfully I forced my way into doing some relative work when I was an intern/co-op, I was able to save another intern, but the remaining two....they were lost to the abyss of diet coke and warranty testing.

The Clutch by Distance is a must

doomsword said:

I figured out how to parametrize Simple Motion module in GX Works3, found it in a manual, it explains how things are distributed in memory for SM module, and I figured out what is what. Module offers few FBs that appear in GX Works3, which can be used for various things, but I'd rather write directly to registers in SM, to reduce execution time, if that seems like good idea to you?

Click to expand...

Your project will fail if you have to wait for the PLC to respond. There is no way it will be fast enough.

EVERYTHING must be done in the motion module. If there is a clutch by distance command then it can be issued BEFORE the leading marker arrives. The motion module will then wait for the right encoder count to start the motion by ramping up as a function of the reference encoder counts. This way the slave ( label ) motor can be synchronized to the foil encoder. The right encoder count to start the ramp is one of the parameters of the clutch by distance command. This is the ONLY way this will work.

The label machine must accelerate to 1.2 m/s in how much distance? Have you done the math for the motion profile?

I'll bring more info next week, thanks for all the help guys!

btw is it possible to reassign pins in connector that goes into motion module? I thought after I plug in encoder cable from motor that drives conveyor, i could plug both marker sensor on foil and sensor that indicates label end into motion module, configuring pins to trigger whatever registers are needed to sync this. Problem is that I have never seen how cables look and how they wire onto PLC, I don't know if this is physically possible.
Just checking the manual about it, I see that pin functions change when you change position/speed/torque control. PLC would be used just to configure pins to achieve sync.

Ok, so I found something is GX Works3 called synchronous control. It's incredible how it's just casually mentioned in manual I got, there's another manual dedicated just to synchronous control, and general manual I've been screening just mentions it.
Is this it? Do I now need to figure out how to set things up in this section?

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2ciclci.jpg