Opinion needed about company's practices

Hello gents,

Although I'm looking to get a new job elsewhere, I'm still working in this company and may be put on the spot with something and I'd like your opinion on.

Basically, the company has two installations (one is working, the other is not commissioned yet). In both these installations there is a piece of equipment manufactured in Australia (the plants are in South of Europe).

The company asked the supplier to give us the PLC password to be able to modify the code as they haven't had much success with getting their stuff working properly (although, having been to that facility I can bet that they are trying to fix with software what maintenance isn't doing).
The supplier agreed to give the password for a fee... that seemed to make my manager go off the rails and because we have the latest copies (commented copies) of the software he wants to wipe the CPU and download the program without any password so we can change it.

As if this wasn't bad enough... he now wants to take a copy of program in the working plant, load it in the plant that is yet to be commissioned and basically not get the equipment commissioned by the manufacturer and obviously (knowing how these people work) not pay the final percentage of the cost.

To me this is really shady... to the point I hardly slept yesterday and if the subject comes up today I'll most likely get in a huge discussion and walk out.
Do you guys have any advice on what I should do in this situation?

Avoid the huge discussion if you can and if it really bothers you, pen your resignation. I personally would distance myself; depending on how much is owed there will be a law suit and who wants to be part of that. Your boss's choice to burn a bridge with the vendor will haunt the company for some time.

The guys in charge seem to be experts at bridge burning...

I don't see that this will lead to a lawsuit due to the location of both companies and how to enforce penalties.

Hopefully, I won't stay for long here.

Whatever you do, don't burn your bridge with the guy the guy that pays you.

Keep looking and something will crop up job-wise. If London is anything like the South West, people are crying out for control guys with either Siemens or Rockwell experience.

It's really going to be hard not burning bridges with these people... but it's great advice nevertheless.

I have an interview lined up and a couple of leads too... so I should manage to get out soon.

Fingers crossed.

First that is very unethical. Copying software from one machine to another is never recommended. Parameters are almost never the same, and then you need to calibrate, commission and test.

Manufacturers take full liability for their machines, now that the code is tampered with that is probably out the window. It is always best to let the experts sign off on their equipment, even if is more expensive. If that machine kills someone god forbids, your company is in for a long ride in the court.

I know it's unethical... the sleepless night is a clear sign of that.

The machine itself is equal... it's not that complex really, but it's still unethical.

The manufacturer will never take liability of the system that isn't commissioned because there is no acceptance from the company I work for (or final payment), so that is not really bothering me as there is no way they can pin the supplier for anything in case of fault or failure.

I really wish more and more companies would offer Ethics courses as well, as much as we push safety.

It looks like you already know what to do, just don't put your name anywhere in that machine.

Thanks for your input...

Actually, for the last 9 years (in American companies), Ethics and business practice courses were given yearly to everyone. They weren't in depth and most focused around bribe regulations that are pretty heavy in the US even for non-Americans and non-residents.

But I mean... this is a company that turned down free training because they don't want to pay for flights and hotels.

It's pretty rare in my experience to find a company not willing to just give you their source PLC code for free. The only exceptions I've seen are if there is some kind of liability attached to it. For example, if the PLC controls something gas-fired, the manufacturer doesn't want to be held responsible for people monkeying with their code and burning buildings down as a result.

But on a normal piece of a equipment, I generally judge a company not willing to divulge their code as being pretty shady. A lot of plants have technicians and it's really best when a plant can take ownership of their equipment and not have to constantly call in service technicians all the time. Having a commented copy of the program is really a must for troubleshooting.

As far as your boss doing it for the purposes of avoiding paying a startup fee, I don't think that's shady, especially if the OEM isn't doing a very good job starting up their equipment. The big question is, does *YOUR* company have the expertise necessary to start the equipment up faster? If not, then it could end up being a lot more expensive to do it yourself than to call an expert.

We do have the source code... it is a gas powered device. However, all automated equipment has the capability of hurting or killing people.

And having been on the maintenance side of things, having the source code is a god send to improve and troubleshoot stuff.

The terms and conditions state that the equipment is paid in sections. Normally a bit for the company to start working, then a bit more on a successful FAT (which we don't do), a bit more on approved delivery of goods and then another bit (around the 10 or 20%) once the equipment is put in operation.

There are complaints that the system isn't working as it should... but on a plant with no maintenance, it is extremely likely that the reduced performance of the machine is due to dirt rather than poor equipment.

Either way, thanks for your input.

I think in this situation it is typically better to have a good relationship with the manufacturer so that they will continue to assist you down the line.

At the same time, they need to be able to say "This is not a program issue, this is maintenance, Etc."

When they did the startup, or runoff they should have went over all of the maintenance critical items. If they did, but the management or supervision for that facility isn't making sure it is performed then its probably a good idea to get out when you can.

cardosocea said:

it is a gas powered device. However, all automated equipment has the capability of hurting or killing people.

Click to expand...

That's true, but gas is unpredictable and very difficult to control. With most automated equipment, there are ways to virtually guarantee the hazard will be removed if the power is cut. You can shut off the hydraulic pump, you can kill the power to the servos, etc.

With gas-fired equipment, cutting the power off doesn't necessarily remove the hazard. Something goes wrong, something gets caught on fire, all the E-stops and fancy safety circuitry in the world won't put that fire out.

It's very typical to see manufacturers of boilers, hot water heaters, etc. closely safeguard their code and charge for it. You also may have to sign a legal waiver. Gas-fired stuff is in a completely different universe when it comes to legal liability, at least here in the states.

Where I used to work, we had a copy of the program, but we needed a password to change it. We had to buy the password and sign a legal release in order to be able to make changes. So, at the very least they should provide you with a read-only copy of the program. If they won't even do that, that's pretty shady.

FactoryTalktotheHand said:

It's pretty rare in my experience to find a company not willing to just give you their source PLC code for free. The only exceptions I've seen are if there is some kind of liability attached to it. For example, if the PLC controls something gas-fired, the manufacturer doesn't want to be held responsible for people monkeying with their code and burning buildings down as a result.

As far as your boss doing it for the purposes of avoiding paying a startup fee, I don't think that's shady, especially if the OEM isn't doing a very good job starting up their equipment.

Click to expand...

I've had PLC's that controlled air compressors that the company would not give out the password to the program until after the warranty period expired. I've also had a company that would not give out the password to a program that ran a three bottle dehydration system. It could have been because they were embarrassed about the code (I figured that with 3 bottles the parameters for the cycle times should be the same, but 1 bottle had 7 parameters, one had 8, and one had 9, and they did not seem to match the actual times the valves moved). But I think the real reason they did it was so that we were locked into using them and getting a big bill for their magic numbers to get the system to work if we wanted to adjust some of the cycle times.

As far as it being shady, wouldn't say one way are the other without more information. I haven't seen your terms and condition when your company bought the equipment. Are you supposed to own the code? Are you supposed to get a license to the code? Are they meeting deadlines they agreed too? Is your company meeting the deadlines they agreed to meet? From what you've described, I don't know if your boss is asking you to do anything illegal. I also don't know if the supplier has done anything illegal.

Hello,

This slipped my mind a bit.
The company always leaves a large chunk of the equipment price to be paid after commissioning. If they move code from one plant to the other, they won't pay the rest.

The ability to modify the code is not included in the deal. They do leave behind the commented code but I believe that is just a courtesy.

The major issue is that to get someone from the supplier on site is very costly. However, the supplier did not hold a gun to anyone's head to sign a contract. They went to Australia because either no one in Europe was daft enough to supply them or they are dumb.

Not that it matters, this added to other very shady behaviors was enough for me to hand in my resignation from that place.

For the UK guys, do you have any tips on where to look for Control System positions?