ControlLogix: Go "Online" Then Asked to Upload/Download

Didn't want to hijack someone's thread. Also, this will be easier for someone else to search for and find.

Yesterday Operations complained about some blowers that weren't switching properly, so after locating the "Controlled" version of the software, I opened it, and lo and behold, I got that dialog telling me I had to "Upload" or "DownLoad".

Now, I *think* this is because the app I've opened, and the program running in the Controller, don't match, correct? If true, this is troubling to me because the "Controlled" version is supposed to match, but that's another story. Anyway, I chose "Upload" (because I didn't want to "Download"), and after it performed its many gymnastics (which worried me), I was able to do what I wanted to do. Upon exit, I selected "Do Not Save", but it STILL *appeared* to save something.

My question is - DID it save something (that may have altered my "Controlled" file????). It *better* not have!

Short answer: no.

When you close RSLogix/Studio, it has to deal with the temporal files (*.sem and *.wrk).

when I run into that it's a good indication that the running program was modified at some point.
I then copy the saved controlled version to another place. This way I am never working with the controlled version.
then open Logix in a new program
upload the program from the PLC and compare the 2 programs to see what has changed.
as for your question I don't believe that you overwrote the original version.
but the bigger question why are the 2 programs different they don't change themselves.

nhatsen:

But what if I accidentally had clicked the "Save" button??? It would've overwritten my "Controlled" version, right??

GaryS:

Yeah, right ... why are the two programs different?? I don't know. Nothing *I* did, but now I have to deal with it, I guess.

I don't want to have to save my "Controlled" version anywhere else. It's in the "Controlled" area where it belongs. But I want to be able to simply go to the "Controlled" area and open that file whenever someone asks me to debug something because I don't want to have to go hunting for an app to use when I know the one in "Controlled" SHOULD match what is loaded. Now, THIS TIME, for whatever reason, it *didn't* match, but 99 times out of 100 it will.

But if I use this file, is there any way I can use it in READ ONLY mode, or some way that I can ensure that it doesn't accidentally get overwritten?? I should be able to open ANY FILE I WANT, and if it doesn't match what's loaded, FINE ... save it in some junk directory, but don't damage the file I opened initially. That's just plain dumb (if that's what it does)!

Even if it did match there is the risk of it getting updated when you open and use it just for browsing. A slip of the keyboard, alt-s would do it.

For browsing or for opening and manipulating something in the data table, open with a copy of the controlled version. With both versions saved separately, you have a lot more options with compare tools, etc. to figure your next action.

I copy my previous saved file (my filenames have the date in them), which is my control file, rename the copy to today's date, and then go online with it. If the s/w prompts for a upload or download, I always chose upload and save it. I then do a comparison between the two to see what changed and what the impact will be to any online edits or data table changes I plan on making.

jstolaruk:

WOW! That's a pretty poor implementation by Rockwell, but it doesn't surprise me. I used to hear the horror stories from afar from the guy who used to be here "dealing with" Rockwell PLCs. I was glad to be on the DCS side, far away from Rockwell.

And I don't want to be copying files all over the place, and renaming stuff. That's just asking for trouble. The guy before me used to occasionally lose stuff. Part of the problem was - he had copies all over the place! His *own* "Controlled" directory, his *own* "Project" directory, buried everywhere. I had my DCS code in three places: my current working copy on my local machine, the "Working" area on the server, and the "Controlled" area where the "Working" app got moved once it was delivered. Simple, predictable, and effective. I don't want copies of things all the place...

Here's what Rockwell could do to fix this (or maybe this feature exists?): You save the application as a "Controlled" version. Now, if you EVER open it, it CANNOT be overwritten, or damaged in any way. It is a READ-ONLY version for debug purposes. That's exactly what I want. And I want it in ONE PLACE, where I (and anyone else who wants to use it) knows where it is, and we can *all* use it in a very trusting way, without having to worry about damaging any files!

Is this capability in these PLCs somewhere? It'd be awfully easy to do ...

SoftwareJanitor said:

jstolaruk:

WOW! That's a pretty poor implementation by Rockwell, but it doesn't surprise me. I used to hear the horror stories from afar from the guy who used to be here "dealing with" Rockwell PLCs. I was glad to be on the DCS side, far away from Rockwell.

Here's what they could do to fix this (or maybe this feature exists?): You save the application as a "Controlled" version. Now, if you EVER open it, it CANNOT be overwritten, or damaged in any way. It is a READ-ONLY version for debug purposes.

They don't have this capability in these PLCs?? It'd be awfully easy to do ...

Click to expand...

That may be an option, make the file read only. I could see that for maintenance purposes. Most of my customers have a automatic backup system running on their plant network that archives uploaded code to a version control system.

My procedure works best for me because I develop code for new machines and every day there is changes until it runs off and ships. I delete the old files after the job ships. Several times it saved me to go back and use something that got deleted early on only to need it again.

SoftwareJanitor said:

nhatsen:

But what if I accidentally had clicked the "Save" button??? It would've overwritten my "Controlled" version, right??

Click to expand...

That's right.

Since you're not using a software to control the versions, like RSMAcc/FTV Asset Centre, you can keep the "controlled" application in a safe place, and set its read-only attribute. Next time you need to go online, get a copy of the file and clear the read-only attribute. At the end, you can decide if the new file has to be the "controlled" one.

I think that refreshing the "controlled" application is a good practice because you get the most recent settings (PID settings, recipes).

jstolaruk said:

My procedure works best for me because I develop code for new machines and every day there is changes until it runs off and ships. I delete the old files after the job ships. Several times it saved me to go back and use something that got deleted early on only to need it again.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I do the same thing, keeping copies in an "Old_Revs" directory under "Working" (in case I need to go back ... but I never do). It's insurance (or paranoia). But everybody at my site KNOWS that they can *always* go to "Controlled" and use that DCS file and it'll match what's loaded. Everybody knows where this area is, it's very predictable and reliable.

But the PLCs are another story. Gotta make it hard, I guess...

PLCs have very active data tables so as nhatsen mentioned its a good idea to have recent backups. If you're afraid of code changes, there are ways to lock out the controller from making unintended code changes. Its as simple as putting the mode key on the front of the processor to "RUN" instead of "REM".

anytime you do anything with a file you run the risk of contaminating it.
in you case everybody should only work with a copy. The controlled version should never be accessed directly.
Check out a program called Version Control
You check files in and then when somebody need to access them they get a copy
the original stay's put when you check the file back in it will flag you if the file has changed. I think it will even track how many copies are checked out.
It may be what you need.

SoftwareJanitor said:

But if I use this file, is there any way I can use it in READ ONLY mode, or some way that I can ensure that it doesn't accidentally get overwritten??

Click to expand...

I don't remember if it was possible to open a read-only file in older versions of RSLogix. In the new versions, the software popups a message indicating that you can proceed to work with a copy but you'll lose the chance to use the autorecovery feature.

SoftwareJanitor said:

Here's what Rockwell could do to fix this (or maybe this feature exists?): You save the application as a "Controlled" version.

Click to expand...

FT AssetCentre is the fix sold by Rockwell. Each time you need to go online with a controller, you have to "check out" the application from the server, do your job, and "check in" the application. You don't need to change filenames or worry about keeping copies: AssetCentre deals with the versions and you have a register of those versions if you want to see an older one.

AssetCentre can tell you if an application was modified and what rungs were modified; since the access requires an active account, you also know who's the responsible of any change.

nhatsen said:

That's right.
I think that refreshing the "controlled" application is a good practice because you get the most recent settings (PID settings, recipes).

Click to expand...

Not any place I've every worked. Once the software is "Controlled", it is etched in stone for all eternity.

Now, I bend the rules sometimes by re-loading once or twice *before* actually *moving* the file to "Controlled". This double load thing sometimes happens because there's a very obvious "micro-bug" that gets discovered immediately after the first load that a quick re-load will fix. Certain people (I won't get specific) want you to move the file to "Controlled" FIRST (with all the associated paperwork signed off), THEN if you find a bug after the load, you have to go through the entire process AGAIN (paperwork signed off, moving the file, etc.). No thank you. Simply ridiculous, but typical of people who have never done the job and just point to some mantra that makes absolutely no practical sense...

If your programs are to be actually controlled, and "Etched in stone for all eternity", then you had better go and shell out the money for a server, and AssetCentre.

Trying to play the game of "But it **IS** controlled software" to an auditor then pointing how carefully you copy things back and forth is not going to end well.