Measuring Moisture

I am looking for recommendations for MOISTURE Sensors (Meters).

I need to measure Moisture at FEED END and DELIVERY END of conveyor, companre the value to the required and do actions accordingly.

Any help would be appreciated.

Hello,

I installed two different kind of moisture sensores. One is from a company in de states follow this Link and the other one is from a company in New-zealand follow thisLink

For feel to ask for more information

Rudi

Hello,

I installed two different kind of moisture sensores. One is from e company in de states follow this Link and the otherone is from a company in New-zealand follow thisLink

For feel to ask for more information

Rudi

Great Moisture

Hello there, are you looking for surface moisture or are you looking at bound moisture (moisture inside product)? Surface would be NIR (Near Infared) and bound would be RF (Radio Frequency). Send me an email if you have further questions, I can get you in touch with the appropriate people...alphabowman @ fuse.net

Thanks for your email. I am contacting the companies for more information.

the products mostly used in our line of activity (i.e., Tobacco), link given below

http://www.ndcinfrared.com/ProductView~id~32.aspx

from this I gather we are talking about NIR, and for some reason I have not heard anywhere about Radio Frequency, I am not sure why could be the COST or some kind of TECHINICAL hinderance, or maybe I missed it out!!

The reason to contact ppl here, was I need to custom design using just the sensors, etc. I dont need the whole solution, coz' its going to be toooooo $$$$$$$

I need to place ONE unit at the feeding of the dryer and another at the DELIVERY point. so that the Analogue values I get from both these can help me adjust the following:
a) Fresh Air intake
b) Exhaust
c) Steam quantity, etc.

Thanks

MOISTURE METER

The moisture meter you have mentioned is the correct one to use for the Tobacco Dryer application.

However if your application is for controlling the moisture level in the Dryer by changing the Cylinder temperature or Air flow and temp then the application control and PID control is required based on good programming.

By the way which make Dryer are u using ?

Also check these guys out, don't know if they've done anythingin Tabacco, but they're good guys to work with...

http://www.delmhorst.com/

Arc, basically we are Engineers (fabricators) so we build our own dryers, for many customers (Namely tobacco, Food & confectionary, etc). (so if you ever need one let me know, I'll throw in a good deal for my PLC-Pals

or visit us at www.ismailgroup.com

Thanks marksji, I'm visiting the site right now.


Actually I was interested to measure the moisure inside the air (as observed by arc) rather than the product its self. The reason to do so was to develop a cheaper solution, by relating the moisture in the air, at feed and delivery ends, with that in the product, at a given speed....

If i good for the custom designed solutions, they are pretty expensive, and hey, I get paid for searching a better alternate to alternates!!!!

thanks all, and I'd appreciate more suggestions, something similar to a SENSOR with an Analog output signal, I'll do the PID stuff my self, hopefully

SD

Dear Mjamil,

Sorry for the PID part but normally for tobacco drying application (Stem & Lamina) what kind of Standard deviation on output product moisture level are your dryers along with your automation solution able to give?

Regarding Cigarette Making M/C, which makes have you all been able to give solution for (Refurbished ones), I was keen to know about that.

Arc,

Mostly we have been dealing with MK8 post64s, and Mk8Ds, some cases of MK9s. In short, we are dealing in Molins' make, in rebuilt conditions that is.

looks like you have yourself some idea of this industry too, is it right?

Not Much

Dear M.Jamil,

Don't have much knowledge, but have friends in that Industry and have been talking to them on various issues.

One of them, on dryers where the expectation was of 0.5% to 0.2% SD, and trying to get this kind of values without the knowledge of exact moisture levels at input and output of dryer + Tobacco flow rates becomes a bit tough for feed forward controls which becomes the heart of the system.

a) Regarding the cig making M/s any Idea on Loga M/s ?

b) We are trying to find out or a driver (OPC) (low cost for QTM M/c) if not the may be develop one, for a quality control system for prim processing section. There is one company who has this will try that too, just thought to check with you too.
Regards

Hi,

Its good to know friends with similar experience.

The moisture level you are mentioning, is very very low, I'm not sure how and why this low moisture is going to be used.

The product moisture we require at delivery end is about 12~16 percent, of course dependant on the atmospheric temp / moiture there.
(we derive the product moisture using hand held units, as online are WAYYYYYYY expensive, thats why I am trying to establish a link between the moisture we give to the product and its result)

the Tobacco flow rates, are available as we control the feed of tobacco, by use of MEtering band conveyors, installed with Variable freq. drives. (other methods are also used in industry, for instance checking the feed input per TIME base, etc.)

a) Loga are pretty new in this industry, way more sophisticated, I'm sorry there are very rare in tobacco industry in our region.

b) If you give more details, maybe I'll learn some more or perhaps even put in a few suggestions.

Dear M.Jamil

0.5% AND 0.2% are the expected Deviation from the set-point and not the measured value. Measured Values are as you mentioned 16% - 17% Set-point, and sure based on Ambient conditions

As soon as I know more on the Cig Machine I sure will talk to you.
We are trying to get more details. If required on Max systems if needed i will surely talk to you.

Any info on Statistical Controls you all have implented, I posted one Question on SPC but no answers till now ?

Regards

----------------
arc

Moisture meters and Dryer Control

Hi,

I am an expert on Tobacco Drying. The industry standard (preferred) now is generally the TM710 (by NDC which you know about). The reason is that NDC have developed this unit specifically for measuring moisture in tobacco and is "colour insensitive". The beauty of the TM710 is that it is done over profibus and can be programmed with "trim" values for different types of tobacco and different ranges.
The programming and use of feedforward or feedback control depends upon the type of dryer and it's responsive controls, whether it is an "in line" or "Contra-flow" dryer (which direction the air is travelling) as this makes a big difference to the moisture absorbtion characteristics and Fill Value achievable.
Drying moistures required by various companies can differ quite a lot, depending on weather conditions, Casing or Top Flavour additions, expansion required, stem structure, smoking characteristics. Just drying tobacco is MUCH more than just the exit moitsure, there are many many factors also related in the dryer dynamics and actual temperatures.
I don't visit this site particularly.. so if you want further help you can email me at [email protected]
I am a private contractor to the tobacco industry and suppliers of equipment (primary processing).. so you can be quite specific in your questions if you like.
Regards
Richard Christian

Rebuilt Machines

Hi Guys ,
Interested to see you rebuild Mk 9's - what colour paint do you guys "rebuild" them with ?
Want to try an interesting rebuild ? try an HLP5
What PLC's do you use on the MK9's ? From experience , we found that the little C200HS/X's worked well in this application - have you plc'd the BCM yet ?
Hope RC isn't getting soft in his old age and giving away all the tricks of the trade - anyone can dry tobacco (you can leave it outside in the sun) , but knowing how to do it is something that a lot of people have spent a lot of time and money on finding out .
Could try lighting a fire under the cylinder ?
By the way , if you think that online gauging at around GPB14000 is too expensive , then you should consider carefully whether you should be processing tobacco .
Still , if you get it too dry , you could patent the worlds first self igniting cigarettes -

BTW LOG-A are rare because they have all fell to bits - there are still a few boys that run them , particularly when "difficult" tobacco's are involved , you can get half a tree down the garniture and not get an RBO - they can run good at 6500. I thought they were designed about 20 years ago ?
Who wants to buy a pair (inner angle and outer angle makers , with TTO and TTI MAX's , and one HCF ) send a mail