Technology selection

I am involved in a project in my company to define the next generation of process control and process information systems. Specifically I need to evaluate ABB as a potential vendor. You could say that I am conducting an informal benchmarking survey. I would ask anyone who can share opinions or experience with ABB to do so, and also indicate vendor pros and cons (include total cost of ownership). What systems do you like to use best? I am specifically interested in system integration and HMI as well as process information systems (batch reporting, historian, quality tracking etc.).

My condolences to you.

IMHO, efforts to effectively "define the next generation" are no more likely to be successful at that goal than would be consulting a crystal ball. None of us know what the "next generation" of process control or information technology capabilities will be, what will ultimately be successful, or who will drive/lead that success. If any of us did, you can be sure we would be heavily leveraging our own portfolios for the inevitable wealth that would follow...hence I work for a living.

Ok. Enough of that. Now on to something a bit more helpful.

I have had only a couple of dealings with ABB and I must say they were VERY good. This dealing came in the form of phone support while on a job site where I was trouble-shooting a failed 601 AC Drive using their MASTER/SLAVE Macro. The tech on the other end was not only able to quickly walk me through the how-to's, he was patient and professional.

I know this could be nothing more than a single person in the pool, but it impressed me. I often think that any tech worth his/her salt would quickly move on if the company they work for was really bad.

I know it aint much, but that's my experience with ABB.

Steve

What kind of consulting fee are you offering to do your job
for you?

At one time it was easy to decide whether you needed a DCS or a PLC. DCS's were more for PID loops and analog control, while PLC's were more for on-off logic. It is not that easy anymore. PLC's have gotten a lot more powerful and are much better at analog control.
From what I have heard, Control Logix is much better at doing PID loops than PLC5 and SLC500. It also allows programming in Function Box as well as Ladder Logic and Structured Text. It also integrates quite well with RSView32.

You might want to give Control Logix a look.

I will look at the question differently, I will assume you mean next generation for YOUR COMPANY...ie that at this time you are using older technology or relay logic thus you are looking for opinions on plc's, at this time ABB.

Personally my experience with ABB is totally different than aforementioned. I have one machine with 10 small brick type units (07KT93) that are 40 I/O, the cost is approximately $3000 per unit, the software is dos based and cumbersome to use, I have found few places to buy from in the US and very little support at all. This machine is 4 yrs old and a few have failed and/or lost program...ie to me a high failure rate. I have not dealt with their newer line of plc's so cant offer advice on them ( Advant Controller series). A note to add, the Italian company that originally made this machine made the first 2 using ABB, all the rest are AB.

The ABB drives I have never had an issue with.

Our company has four European machines, and ABB components are the most used in these. Having said that, the one machine that has ABB processors (07kt92's and 94's) with "arcnet" communication has been very reliable to date. I just last week tried to find a supplier in North America, and when I faxed him a parts list for spares, was told the processors "are not current" and when existing stock runs out, there will BE NO REPLACEMENT.By the way, they were quoted at $1800 Canadian. PLC support from ABB is almost non-existant, and hardware like relays, contactors, etc. is expensive.
FWIW, I can't imagine these guys being a formidable force in this market, but I have been wrong before. I am, after all, an A-B user.

Forget about ABB

I agree with rsdoran.....stay away from ABB

We had a Baliey Infi-90 for combustion control. We bought the system because it was manufactured near our facility...thought we could get better service...
That system broke down so many times it was not funny. One time it took them 24 hrs to restore the communication link to allow us to work.

I don't know if they still use it but Bailey's "exception reporting" was the worst communication scheme I had ever worked with. Maybe the Alpha series were faster but this system presented data sometimes 30 seconds after the data was recieved by the plc. I found it hard to fathom, and worse I think the techs were not much better.

I can't tell what is good but it is NOT ABB

I know Rosemount transmitters beat ABB handsdown...maybe Fisher

Buy 07kt92 / 07kt93

I'm a little late on this one, but I'm bored and nobody's posting new ones.

I agree on your specific examples, but disagree on the concept. On the HMI/software end, which is what I'm more familiar with, there has been general consensus on the direction for nearly a decade among futurists, magazine writers, and knowledgable end users. There's also a narrowing gap of what vendors are providing. Of course you can't accurately predict which company will win. That has less to do with defining "next generation" and more to do with: implementation, management, support, pricing, marketing, etc, etc. You can easily say that Toyota is the leader in "next generation" environmentally safe vehicles with it's hybrid development without trying to predict their FY12 profit margins.

Similarly, with HMI software you can look at where the technology is going. Generally everybody wants the same capability or more as your old "stand alone" installs in a simple lightweight version - including all the traditionally "separate" packages (batching, alarming, historian, reporting, discreet versus continuous process). Very few will argue against the convergence of standard IT/commercial capabilities - dynamic reporting, enterprise integration, etc, etc. All of this leads to modern computing technologies that have been missing with industrial software. Web services, Service oriented architecture, XML (like the new focus for an OOXML office document format), IT management, standards based security (SSL, encryption, Active Directory, Kerberos, etc, etc). End users have an insatiable appetite for increased capabilities. More data points, more historical data, webcam integration, better graphics, etc.

Can you predict who's going to win? Probably not.

I think Inductive Automation is on the right track with a purely web based client, an "IT friendly" SQL database centric architecture, and a fixed pricing model.

Iconics is aligning closely with Microsoft to leverage powerful new computer (gaming) hardware to deliver advanced 3D graphics. Their newest version runs on 64 bit Windows and utilzes DirectX 10. I question the necessity for this, but think it's cool on my geek-o-meter. They also have Vista gadgets.

Wonderware solutions (InTouch 10) "helps you achieve a new level of operational excellence". They have a new "Breakthrough Experiene" drawing that has really cool graphic art on the web site. I haven't been able to figure out what the new version really does besides support Vista. They're also in pretty close with Microsoft, which may be the way of the future.

It's worth mentioning that Rockwell and Wonderware have been active in the development and fielding of "next generation technology" - specifically OPC-UA. While I don't like the fact that they use their own proprietary implementations, FactoryTalk and Archestra, respectively, these are founded on the above mentioned technologies, and are the basis of what will become the industry standard - OPC Unified Architecture.

What are Citect and GE up to these days? I have no idea. Hopefully GE's working on consoladating products instead of buying out more. I've heard Citect is slipping recently, but haven't confirmed it. It's apparent that you guys don't like ABB - I've never used them.

Steve Etter said:

IMHO, efforts to effectively "define the next generation" are no more likely to be successful at that goal than would be consulting a crystal ball. None of us know what the "next generation" of process control or information technology capabilities will be, what will ultimately be successful, or who will drive/lead that success. If any of us did, you can be sure we would be heavily leveraging our own portfolios for the inevitable wealth that would follow...hence I work for a living.

Click to expand...

Update. Just read up on Citect 7. Their big developments include: more redundancy modes, push save project updates that work without client restart, licensing that counts the actual points that you use, simplified auditing, and a non-descript better virtualization support (I think). All of those are cool features - except the licensing which improves from mediocre to questionable IMO.

Forgot to mention - the big development of Inductive Automation is SQLTags, which creates a high performance industrial tag database on any SQL database. The architectural de-coupling of FactorySQL and FactoryPMI are their strongest point, but there wasn't a notion of a tag database like every other HMI has. The designer had to set this up in the SQL database. SQLTags creates a central tag database that's easy to use, very scalable (adding concurrent clients does not appreciably increase PLC or SQL database traffic), and greatly increases automatic component feedback.

I'd appreciate feedback as to the specifics of other HMI/SCADA vendors new "cool" features or the direction of technology in general.

Nathan,

There is a fairly wide gray area between posting helpful brand-specific responses and advertising for that same brand. The point at which a response is perceived to cross between help and advertising will differ for each member of the forum. For a given member it might even change from one day to another.

In my opinion, some of your recent posts have been getting uncomfortably close to advertising for Inductive Automation. You sound like a person who has a lot of valuable insights to offer, and I would hate to see people start ignoring your posts because of perceived bias in favor of Inductive Automation.

I'm only speaking for myself. Phil is the ultimate arbiter of issues like this.

Steve Bailey said:

Nathan,

There is a fairly wide gray area between posting helpful brand-specific responses and advertising for that same brand. The point at which a response is perceived to cross between help and advertising will differ for each member of the forum. For a given member it might even change from one day to another.

In my opinion, some of your recent posts have been getting uncomfortably close to advertising for Inductive Automation. You sound like a person who has a lot of valuable insights to offer, and I would hate to see people start ignoring your posts because of perceived bias in favor of Inductive Automation.

I'm only speaking for myself. Phil is the ultimate arbiter of issues like this.

Click to expand...

WELL SAID,
DITTO,DITTO

Agree

This was a 5 year old thread that got revived because someone was looking for an ABB plc, the revival had nothing to do with the original thread.

The point is that making a reply in the manner done looks more like advertising then actually trying to offer assistance.

I have been getting to the same comclusion lately.

Sad because I think the guy is obviously intelligent.

I get to spend most of my days sorting out systems sold to a client by an over-zealous vendor. These vendors have given up trying to preach to us now and instead generally use us as a way to ensure what they are selling to the end user is:

a: What the user really wants and
b: Is seen as a successful solution and not something they will complain about for the next 10 years.

I guess by now folks around here have figured I'll say it how it is. If something sucks, I'll say so. If something works, I'll suggest that as a workable solution. We are solutions providers for everybody and as such I have absolutely no allegiance to any particular hardware and wish sometimes other folks would do the same and be a little more objective.

And I still dont like AD ... dont flame me tho!

Oops - double post.