DirectLogic vs Schneider

Hi all!

Warmest regards from Moscow ... and merry Christmas (7 January is Russian Christmas - Russian priests still use Ulian calendar).

It appears that your obedient servant is in position to decide what type of hardware should be used in 2,4 km long tunnel in the Southern Russia. It is on the road to Krasnaya polyana ski-resort, that mr.Putin (maybe you know about him?) likes to visit very often.

Our partners/rivals from Schneider Electric enthusiastically promote their Quantum & Momentum. No doubt they would be work smartly but they are too expensive for my taste (especially taking into account fiber-ring with "not cheap" optical hubs).

My current choice is DL06 (Automation Direct) and Optical ring powered by Hirschmann switches. Also I plan to use twisted pair based (RS-485) MODBUS reserve line (it will feed InTouch SCADA directly). As number of I/O points is not great even this channel would be enough but the object is too "important" (especially taking into that Chechnya is not so far away from the tunnel).

Any propositions, suggestions, thoughts would be welcomed. Some in mentioned hardware (and not mentioned software) is new for me.

Many thanks in advance!

Sergey

Sergey

Happy Christmas and New Year to you too. beerchug

The DL-06 is a very powerful beast for its size. As well as Modbus, there's also the option for Ethernet, if the I/O is within its capacity.

An alternative is using the Terminator Field I/O connected to a 405 CPU as a data concentrator (or two) - this can give you connection for programming to just one (or maybe two) point: easier to commission. Terminator would be more rugged/connectable at remote locations. Options are various, including ethernet, devicenet, etc.

Another advantage with the AD PLCs is the software licencing, which can be a real pain with some of the European brands like Schneider and Siemens. DLogic is easier to transfer from on PC to another. also very simple to use for site maintenance persons at 2:00 am in winter!

Good Luck

Hi Moebius! Thanks!

You can laugh but there is another thing that I took in consideration - unification in hardware. DL-06 will collect data and it will work as a concentrator. It is more, more easy for personnel to maintain one piece of iron (and plastic) than two different ones. Additionally it simplifies problem of spare parts (and controllers in 'cold' reserve). Moreover in case of fire (God save us from this!) controller can perform some urgent actions without any communications with top level.

So happy you are! (enjoing fine weather in Australia).

Best wishes!

PS. I'm curious, would be any voice there in support of Schneider (that it is unconditionally better solution).

In my opinion the AutomationDirect.com wins hands down.

1) The Modicon stuff is over priced

2) Concept software is quirky and awkward to use. The various modules aren't well integrated - for example, you need to exit the main package to edit function blocks

3) Quantum is cheaply built, and doesn't have many 4-20 analog I/O modules

4) Tech support isn't as good (at least in the US)

This is an apples to oranges comparison. Schneider has other options besides Quantum which may be more competatively priced. In my opinion Quantum is like the PLC5. I think the Schneider Premium line is worth investigating (although analog density can be a problem).

It's a transportation tunnel, in Russia. It's a critical application, as it has to function in case of extreme cold, fire, or sabotage.

And you recommend the cheapest Korean-made controller from some mail-order outfit in Florida ?

I would start with Siemens S7-200 or Schneider Momentum, and evaluate which one has the best local support.

Critical infrastructure controls aren't the place to go saving a couple hundred bucks, guys.

Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, you better get your armored suit on. As
soon as the AD guys log-on you are going to get hit hard.

Not to worry, Mickey. Us AD guys will surely agree with Eddie that Sergey should use a Siemens PLC. How about something like the SIMATIC TI305 or TI405 series...

beerchug

-Eric

Well, Eddie, this is the first salvo Mickey predicted.

Koyo built the GE Series One and the TI-305, which became the Siemens 305. They also built the TI and Siemens 405. They started marketing direct when they decided they didn't want to be tied in with one of their biggest competitors, Siemens, after TI was acquired.

I think a product that is still viable after 21 years on the market can't be all bad.

I'll leave the comparisons of reputations for quality and engineering between the Fench and the Japanese to others!

I've used Siemens, too. Good quality hardware, software sucks, documentation absolutely Byzantine in organization, support a major pain.

Originally posted by Eddie Willers:

And you recommend the cheapest Korean-made controller from some mail-order outfit in Florida ?

Click to expand...

Isn't that a Japanese made controller marketed by some mail-order outfit in Georgia?

Just curious.
Keith

Yes it is Georgia, just outside Atlanta. And by the way to the best of my knowledge we have never shipped any product by mail.

Sorry guys could not resist.

Andy

So far you've done a fabulous job ignoring my point. Keep it up.

Probably my dig (geographically incorrect, to boot) at Automation Direct's scale of operations was ill-advised. I regret that and apologize for inferring that Automation Direct might actually be a mail-order company, when they are in fact principally an Internet and Parcel Courier company.

So let me re-phrase.

I think that local support for this kind of installation is more important than purchase price.

If it were me, responsible for this critical infrastructure installation, I would choose a major vendor, even if it cost me a few hundred or even a few thousand dollars more in purchase price. It's not like we're churning out highway tunnels by the dozen.

I do appreciate that the Automation Direct partisans and employees who frequent this Forum did direct their enthusiasm at a thread that actually dealt with Automation Direct. I have been recently quite displeased by reading the dogpile of "Try Automation Direct ! It's cheap !" posts in threads where a member is looking for help or advice with a totally different product.

A fellow named Curt Wuollet was almost singlehandedly responsible for killing the Control.com forum, because he was like a broken record promoting open-source software and PC control. Every question about Allen-Bradley, or Siemens, or Windows-based software was met with "oh, if you used Linux and PC-based control then you wouldn't have that problem".

I really hope that doesn't happen here at PLCTalk.net.

Carry on.

That was me

Sorry, my login apparently got missed.

That was me, Eddie, posting as "guest" above. I just wanted to make my point clear.

I hope that Sergey gets the advice he needs from this thread.

Eddie

I Live about 10000 KM from Atlanta Georgia.
By click on my keyboard I order stuff from ADC.I get it after few days to my workshop.AD books are fantastic.Plain English very easy to understand unlike other manufacturers books.
When I have problems I just pick up the phone and call.
The support is great and helpfull.
In the first time I got 20 minutes explanation and the rest by my self.
DL06 is powerfull mashine with the best cost effective.and a lot of options for $200.

I was in your place and underestimated AD.Untill I tried them and get hit.
I make 2-3 systems in month with PLCs 1 or 2 with AD.The price and the esay programming help to get more jobs.
So check better before you attack somethink I sure you dont know well.

I quite like Tom's comments about Schneider and Concept. Concept is awfull!!!! Tom, you also obviously love Siemens archaic software!!! So do I, and their hardware is over priced. Support in Ozz is almost non existant and was not all that good when it did exist. Had problems with hardware and it was all my fault until they had to eventually pull in their heads when I proved their hardware was the problem.

Schneider have just dropped off a demo version of Unity. Will have a look when I get time and see if it is any better. The price is WOW!!!!

The TSX Premium appears to be quite a good unit, with limitations. Modicon, oh how the mighty have fallen since Schneider took them over.

Sergey, one of the things I look for in a crtical application is communications. TOKEN RING STILL RULES , in my book. No collisions, properly organised, reliable network.

I must admit that Ethernet is getting much better with IP and good switches that are designed for industrial use.

Suggest fibre optic ring so that if there is a break in the fibre, access is still available in the other direction.

Had a newsletter from Sixnet recently about some new industrial grade switches they have. No time to investigate yet but they may be worth a good look. Will have a good look next week. Anyone had a look at them yet?

Consider the following:
I am at present evaluating a tender document for a critical application. The specification is for DUAL fibre optic ring mains, token ring type network, dual communications cards on each PLC, dual redundant processors and power supplies with monitoring and change over controller (hot standby), dual redundant touch screens at each location, etc etc. Some engineers are getting really specific and picky are they not?