Controls engineer .. Automation Engineer

Hello guys,
I am wondering what are the differences between these two job tiltes:
"Automation Engineer" and "Controls Engineer"
To me: I think they are the same in most cases.

Am I right? And if they are different, What do you call the engineer who is working in thesefields: Instrumentation, PLCs, SCADA and these kind of stuff?

Thanks in advance

I automation and control are different.

An automation engineer would be an expert and automation, like machine control, state machines, sequencing etc. Control engineers are more involved in PID, fuzzy logic, sliding mode control, optimal contgrl, Kalman filters, etc.

Many applications requires both skill set. I think motion control is one of them.

This is just my own definition. I have seen no widely accept definition. Therefore I would put most PLC applications in the automation category unless they use a PID loop. At that point they are in the control category too so the two areas can overlap.

I thought these two genres worked together. I have no idea they are two different departments. I must have come from a mix of both departments then...hahahah lolis

regards
Sherine T.

Funny this question should come up now, I'm a process control engineer with over thirty years experience in the chemical industry (no, don't ask how I landed on my current project, which is very definitely an automation job), but since I'm the only person in this establishment who even knows what a PLC looks like, somebody arrived at my desk half-an-hour ago and asked how they can do the following:

Build a remote controlled turntable system with 250kg load capability,
360° rotation
±1° positioning accuracy
rotational speed not important (say 360° in 1 minute would do)

Now I've never had anything to do with motion control or motors in my life, so I'd be very grateful for any suggestions how to go about it. First question I guess is what kind of motor is best for this sort of application, stepping motor springs to mind. Do they come equipped with integrated gear systems?

The other question that was posed was whether they could achieve this with just a PC rather than using a PLC. By the way, I'm (probably) not going to have to get involved in this myself, they just want suggestions.

I'll have a further think about things over the weekend, but I'd be grateful for any pointers.

Hope I'm not about to highjack another thread here!

In my opinion the difference between an automation engineer and a controls engineer is the title on the stnadard job description the personell department (oops ... Human Rescources) uses.

"A rose by any other name smells as sweet." Billy Shakespeare

help

RMA if your serious

Build a remote controlled turntable system with 250kg load capability,

Click to expand...

and need some ideas we built one of these not long ago. Its not remote controlled but it could be very easily. I can explain how we built this one or can send AutoCad drawings. The drawings are not very good but they beat the ones we previously drew on a card board boxs. :site:

In my line of work it could be said that there is also not much difference between control engineer and mechanical engineer !

I've seen mode MEs land in the control side of the business than EEs.

A VFD with an encoder on the motor's drive shaft and knowing the gear ratio on the transmission would do the trick with much more than 1 degree of accuracy. Even a low-count encoder would work, but I'd still go with a 1024 or 2048 ppr encoder, just because I can.

You could probably even accomplish the task without a PLC, assuming the requirements don't balloon as you learn more about the actual application.

"Oh, you don't know how heavy it is? Well, we really need to know that, too."

"No, it has to line up closer than that. That's how big one degree is at this diameter? That's too much."

"When I said remote, I really meant 'wireless.'"

"But this fan has to come on at the same time, then continue for five minutes after it stops moving."

And a dozen other "gotchas" that can happen.

Now, back to the orignally posted topic...

Although Tom is probably spot on in the usage, I see automation being more of a process-intensive area, where control is more of an equipment-intensive area. Controls guys do the detail work, while automation guys do the "big picture."

AE's have no idea why the motor really does go at the right speed when they give it that 14.2 mA. The Controls guy knows why it goes the right speed, but has no idea why you really need it at that speed.

Controls folks also worry about cooling blowers and auxiliary systems and bus sizing. Automation guys just want it to "go" when they say "start."

RMA
Check out
WEBER
or Camco for indexing tables.

I found this definition:
Automation engineering is a cross-section discipline that requires proportional knowledge in hardware and software development and their applications.
In the past automation engineering was mainly understood as control engineering.
This picture has changed since the onset of computer engineering.
Today an automation engineer must combine the knowledge of a computer scientist, a hardware developer, a control engineer, a motive power engineer, and a communication engineer.
An automation engineer can experience an immediate sense of achievement by leading and working from the production to the realization of complex tasks.
Almost no other career is as versatile as the automation engineer.
It is innovative, future orientated and, to a great extent, independent from the economic situation.

Indexing table

Hope I'm not about to highjack another thread here!

Click to expand...

RMA,

Don't be embarassed about "hijacking" this thread. But, you will get more attention to your application if you start a new thread with the buzz words "motion" or "indexing". This will draw the experts like flies.

Other than the indexing, what functions are needed? There are a lot of ways to approach indexing. Can you provide more information?

CB

RMA if your serious(Quote
Build a remote controlled turntable system with 250kg load capability,
and need some ideas we built one of these not long ago. Its not remote controlled but it could be very easily. I can explain how we built this one or can send AutoCad drawings.

Click to expand...

Oh I'm serious all right - also about the fact that I personally probably won't be directly involved.

The bit about remote controlled possibly sounds more exotic than it is. The table is to support a High Power Microwave system during testing, so most of the control system (and operators!) must be kept at a safe distance connected to the table by VERY well shielded cable or preferably optical cable. My thought was that a small 300 series S7 (although a 200 or similar would probably be more than adequate, but the 314C2-DP is already lying around doing nothing), coupled via optical Profibus to the drive ought to do the job quite nicely. I assume that some of the modern drive electronics ought to be able to be coupled up to Profibus.

@DonsDaMan

From the above you can see that the ±1° isn't a problem - they only want to be sure that the're aiming at the target! It's purely a simple test bed, so for a change the requirements probably won't balloon out of control. Although I suspect the job could probably be done with a PC, I don't believe they have any good PC programmers available. By the time you buy the I/O for the PC I think the easier programmability (is there such a word?) of the PLC would make it the cheaper, as well as the more flexible, option.

@gbradley

Weber look interesting, I haven't had time to find my way around the Direct Industry site, do you know if they are also available in Germany?

Thanks for the help so far

and now back to the original post...

Although Tom is probably spot on in the usage, I see automation being more of a process-intensive area, where control is more of an equipment-intensive area. Controls guys do the detail work, while automation guys do the "big picture."

Click to expand...

Funny that, is this another example of Americans and Brits divided by a common language? I would have seen that exactly the other way round.

In the Chemical Industry I was very much involved with the process and certainly in Germany Automation Engineers are automatically assumed to be involved with "Maschinenbau" or the building of automatic assembly equipment, particularly for the automobile industry.

I always thought they are just HR terms but I do think there is a difference when it comes to a "process control engineer" when the terms is used in the chemical industries. In that case, the process (chemical reaction, heat/mass trx, etc) knowledge is essential.

I been called all three names and worse...

Thank you all for replies.

I also found THIS LINK from the ISA website, They call it "ISA's Certified Automation Professional".
From this program/certifivation, We can see what the ISA expect form the automation enginner.

I also saw another ISA certification for Controls engineers recently, but I can't find right now.

Weber look interesting, I haven't had time to find my way around the Direct Industry site, do you know if they are also available in Germany?

Click to expand...

They have a Link but I don't know if the Turntables are on that site.
.de is German??