Pushbuttons verses 3- & 4-way switches?

Ukrainian

Member
Join Date
Jan 2005
Location
Pomona CA
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Does somebody can explain why electrical industry is not using diagram like this to wire any number of momentary N.O. contact pushbuttons and two micro relays (CR1 and CR2) and one power relay (CR3) instead of wiring 3- and 4-way switches? Just put this assembly inside junction box of lamp, and bring any number of wire pairs from any location to the same junction box. Cost of this device would be about $10, but you save a lot of electrician's time and wires, not wasted. Also it is nice to push buttons instead flipping switches.

flipflop.jpg
 
I don't know.

I will venture an observation though. If CR3 is on when power is interrupted to your circuit, it will not return to the ON state when power is restored.

Those funky toggle switches store a little bit of information that's useful when power returns.

.02
 
You are looking at it all wrong forget about the relays and the training of the home owner, The post came from Ca. That is the state that wanted 10 precent of the auto's to be fuel effshent (need spell check) Now Ca. has found out that they are losing money on gas road tax. Soooo now they want to tax you on what time you go to work(early or rush hour will set the rate per mile)Then not to be out done SF,is going to require you to have a permet to drive in the downtown area (are'nt the downtown merchants going to love that).
 
1. A 3 or 4-Way switch costs less than a dollar.
2. With a 3 or 4-Way switch you only have to run 2 wires between the switches. Your example is the same, so your not saving wire or time.
 
Ken Moore said:
Where would you mount the relays?
Who would train homeowners on relay trouble shooting?
With switches, if the switch doesn't work, most likely a bad switch.
Ken
1. I told- inside the junction box of the lamp. It has only two terminals IN(from P.B.) and two OUT (to the lamp)
2.Manual instruction can teach how it works.It is short instruction
3.Just replace all block if not trained
P.S. One more advantage- cappability to accept a remote control pretty easy, and to make it easy on electronic components(instead of relays) as well.
 
Now, if all of this is in a single chip controlled by 5V then there might be a considerable saving in Control Wiring (maybe). You could use #22 AWG (or less) wiring between switches and the final solid-state power relay at the light. The power circuit wiring to the light would, of course, need to meet code requirements.

But then... there's the expense of the 5V source... all told, it might end up being a wash (no loss, no gain).

Considering how cheaply ASICs can be made, your switch should go for much less than $10.00 to be competitive. Actually, they need to cost no more than ordinary switches to break into this niche. Don't be greedy! Consider dealing in VOLUME! Ten-cents profit on each of a BILLION (US) Switches is pretty good beer money!
 
ian,

Whether he drew the drawing correctly or not, if he is thinking of an ASIC then the concept is sound and viable. It simply involves designing an ASIC, with a local push button, to act as either a 3-way or a 4-way depending on how it is connected to the other switches.

The button would have to act as described in many of our discussions about "one-button toggles" (one-button Start-Stop).
 
Potter & Brumfield used to make a device called a 'ratchet relay' - maybe still do. It was an electro-mechanical flip-flop with one coil - not a latching relay.

A much simpler thing to wire and it wouldn't 'forget' its state on power failure.
 
Aren't we talking about something as simple as a light switch in a hallway or kitchen?

The Potter-Brumfield solution costs a fortune comparatively.
 
I would say that it is a training issue. It is easy to say that just train the home owners to replace the box, let alone change an internal component. What is even worse I have dealt with a lot of contractors, that can effeciently and safely wire a house, but ask them to install a low voltage lighting system or to wire in a PLC, is like the differnece between walking and crawling. Even though it is all the same type of work it is largly based on a "Comfort Zone" that the individual is comfortable with. Much like the general flipping of a switch, maintained switch, regraurdless of the up or down position of the switch a transition means change, when it doesnt work the transistion is attempted again. An operator on a machine typically expects a change when he presses a momentary push button, when it doesn't, he not only presses it again, but it is generally much harder the second time and is still often unsure if the Switch made the transition. I think that home owners are generally more comfortable with with the transition rather than many other alternatives. I have a freind that replaced many of the switches in his home with motion detectors. Years later he says he likes them, saves money and more. The one thing that he hates, and hates really bad, almost to the point of reinstalling regular switches, is that he still finds him self reaching for the light switch either entering or leaving a room and he says it drives him nuts. Comfort Zone most of us were trained to use the switch not a button.
 
Oh Dear

Terry Woods said:
ian,

Whether he drew the drawing correctly or not, if he is thinking of an ASIC then the concept is sound and viable. It simply involves designing an ASIC,

What is a ASIC??



What I was thinking is that the circuit will probably not work with conventional relays & pushbuttons...ie a relay race condition may develop....
 
I tested when I saw it first at this forum (with topick "Hard Wired Circuit" for flip/flop (It is not my design,but I like it). I tested it on simulator "The Constructor".
 

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