S7 - ProTool - Too many Power Tags

RMA · May 10, 2005

I'm not quite sure how I got there, but somehow in the last couple of weeks I've managed to go way over the permitted 2048 Power Tags and Variables - about 2250 Power tags and 2500 Variables. The funny thing is that everything seems to be working OK apart from the warning window which pops up every now and again.

Does anybody know what problems could crop up if I don't get back down below 2048? If there are any potentially serious problems it looks like I'll have to make my transition to WinCC Flexible earlier than I wanted to!

The only slight oddity I've noticed sofar is one output display object which occasionally goes invisible for some reason that I can't identify.

JesperMP · May 10, 2005

There is no way to circumvent the 2048 powertags limit.
However, I dont think that there are other problems apart from the nag-screen you get every 10 minutes.

I think that the other limits stated by Siemens are only estimated maximum values, below which the functionality is guaranteed. I have made screens with many more display objects than "allowed" and it works with no problems.

RMA · May 10, 2005

I have made screens with many more display objects than "allowed" and it works with no problems.

Thanks Jesper, that's nice to know. That means I can put off my transition to WinCC Flexible until the 2005 version shows up!

RRobbins · May 10, 2005

It sounds like you may have a lot of boolean tags. We ran into the same problem and are converting the bools to DWords and then use "Multiplexing" and "bit #" thus using 32 bools as 1 tag.

RMA · May 10, 2005

Yes, a quick count of pure I/O (i.e without any logicals) turns up 1540. However, the thought of going through the 24 pictures, never mind the 94 Multiplexed Variables (with 21 entries each), is enough to turn me prematurely grey! Is there any way of (semi-)automating the procedure?

S7Guy · May 10, 2005

Roy, a while ago I mentioned a ProTool project I did where I did the actual multiplexing in the PLC. It was a project where there were 90 conveyors and 60 Micromaster Drives divided into groups, and the operators needed to be able to select any of them at any time. Also, each drive and conveyor had several properties that had to be entered (speed, mode, direction, etc). Add to this the fact that if I changed the DB structure in the PLC, I had to manually change all the tags in ProTool (I only had to do it once to realize that the lack of a tag import tool into ProTool is a major flaw).

Anyway, what I ended up doing is designing one screen on the TP. It had generic property tags that could be set for each component, and these matched some generic tags in the PLC. I also added a component instance tag on the screen. So, if someone selected Drive 81, an "81" would be sent to the PLC, and the PLC would populate the generic tags with the properties of drive 81. If someone wanted to change the speed, the PLC would copy the speed setpoint from the generic tag to drive 81. I went from over a thousand tags to less than 50, and I no longer care what the PLC addresses are, and can change them whenever I want as long as I keep the generic addresses the same.

The multiplex feature would work in ProTool as well, except that you're screwed if the addresses ever change.

Just a thought.

RMA · May 10, 2005

Since I'm going to have to migrate to WinCC Flexible at the end of the day anyway and since Jesper seems to be right that everything still works anyway, this sounds like too much effort for the time being. However, I'll certainly keep the idea in mind for future use.

Add to this the fact that if I changed the DB structure in the PLC, I had to manually change all the tags in ProTool (I only had to do it once to realize that the lack of a tag import tool into ProTool is a major flaw).

I don't know if things are different with the TPs, but I'm working with ProTool integrated in Step7 and as long as I don't change too many things at once in the DBs, the re-synchronisation seems to work pretty well. I had a couple of problems at first changing several things at once and then using the check box to handle all similar events the same way, where ProTool got confused. Now I take a bit more care and it seems too work pretty well. I'm not quite sure exactly what the conditions were that got it confused, though.

S7Guy · May 10, 2005

...but I'm working with ProTool integrated in Step7 and as long as I don't change too many things at once in the DBs, the re-synchronisation seems to work pretty well.

Hmmm. I have ProTool set up as integrated with S7, but if I change any address at all, I'm hosed. How do you resynchronize? And, do you use any arrays in your DBs? I've found that when I create new tags in ProTool, and use the symbolic tag selection window, only the first instance of an array appears (i.e. Motor[1], but not Motor[2]). Maybe that's the problem. If I could find a way to fix this, I might even use a Siemens TP again.

RMA · May 10, 2005

No, relative beginner that I am, I use neither arrays nor UDTs in by DBs (yet!). I have got some Multi-instances and as far as I'm aware, they have correctly linked - I'll have to have a look tomorrow when I'm back at work. There again, as far as I can remember, I've never actually modified one of the Multi-instances (as far as I can remember!).

The resynchronisation is in the "Bearbeiten" menu and I don't believe I do anything special, although as I said, I had problems when I had too many changes in one DB all at the same time.

RMA · May 11, 2005

I've found that when I create new tags in ProTool, and use the symbolic tag selection window, only the first instance of an array appears (i.e. Motor[1], but not Motor[2]).

Just tried creating an array in a DB to try it out. Sure enough, only the first member of the array shows up in ProTool. I guess that's one step too complicated for relatively simple ProTool. It seems pretty reasonable to assume that if ProTool isn't capable of displaying all the members of an array in the Symbolic Tag selection window, then it's not going to be able to resynchronise them either.

So far I haven't had any situations where I felt there would have been a major advantage for me using arrays in the DBs, so it hasn't hurt me yet. Given the the way you structure your programs with heavy use of UDTs, though, it's a pretty fatal flaw.

The problem is so fundamental, that I can't think that there is likely to be any way of getting round it (other than not using arrays, of course!).

CT782 · May 19, 2005

Roy,

One technique I do to save tags is this:

Suppose you have 10 conveyors, each conveyor's manual functions are stored in a WORD in a global data block. Say MANUAL FWD is bit 0 in the WORD and MANUAL REV is bit 1. I make the MANUAL WORD in the data block a tag in protool. Then in protool I set those particular bits in the tag using the "Set bit in a tag" function. Does this make sense? Assuming you only used FWD and REV, you have only used 10 tags instead of 20. If you had MAN LO SPEED, MAN HI SPEED, MAN REV LO SPEED, MAN REV HI SPEED you have 40 functions and still have only used 10 tags.
Hope this helps

Best Regards

Chris

Bratt · May 23, 2005

RMA said:
Just tried creating an array in a DB to try it out. Sure enough, only the first member of the array shows up in ProTool. QUOTE]

S7Guy said:

Hmmm. I have ProTool set up as integrated with S7, but if I change any address at all, I'm hosed. How do you resynchronize? And, do you use any arrays in your DBs? I've found that when I create new tags in ProTool, and use the symbolic tag selection window, only the first instance of an array appears (i.e. Motor[1], but not Motor[2]). Maybe that's the problem. If I could find a way to fix this, I might even use a Siemens TP again.

Click to expand...

Use the button Modify index to change which member of the array you want to access. And like CT782 stated "Set and reset bit in a tag" is a great way to reduce the number of powertags you use.

CVALKA · May 23, 2005

ProTool/Pro RT 8000 Tags

Siemens has made a key:
A9PRO550.EKB SIK/SIMATIC ProTool/Pro RT 8000 Tags
For the unknown reasons it does not use it.

RMA · May 23, 2005

That's interesting, it would explain why everything seems to work quite happily, apart from the nag screen.

Since the project has to be migrated to WinCC Flexible on completion anyway, I don't think I'll worry about it anymore!

Cvalka · May 23, 2005

Rt2048

For WinCC flexible RT also max 2048 Tags
A9XRP310.EKB SIK/WinCC flexible RT prof. 2048 Tags V1

S7 - ProTool - Too many Power Tags

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