Manufacturer training classes

Just curious about what some of the PLC manufacturers offer for training on their products, and for that matter, what they charge for a training class, course or school.

I look forward to your responses.

Thanks.

God Bless,

You want us to do your leg work for you? Go to each manufacturer's web site and get info on their training.

Question you should ask is what experience (positive or negative)
people have with training classes and what suggestions they have for you so that your training class is the best of the best.

This is just my opinion but I base it on several questions posed by Mr. Luft: He knows the answer (or how to get it) but asking these questions on the forum gives him "air time".

1500 GBP = 2640 USD.

Thanks for answering MY question.

Attitude

Somebody tell me where this antagonism towards Mr Luft is arising from? In almost every thread Stephen's posted to lately, somebody has come along and tried to whack him like a mole.

It's getting unseemly, people. It's no secret Stephen works for Enteron, I for one am glad he's here in case a question comes up involving his product. Being a vendor ain't a crime. And before anybody grabs a handy mallet, I am NOT a vendor either.

(Personally, I think most vendor help sites ought to have a link here - PLCs.net is more helpful than 90% of them anyhow...)

As for your question, it depends on the purpose of the "class". The get-to-know-our-stuff/sales-pitch is generally free, hosted by a vendor. I believe Unitronics offered an in-depth series of classes for three days in Vegas last year. Rockwell charges an arm and a leg for anything, including knowledge.

Reading your post, I have a feeling you are contemplating setting up some kind of training on your product. I just attended a 1-day class on DVT cameras, and it was very informative, touched on the basics and highlighted some special features, and had some very useful info on lighting and lens selection as well. It was free.

My two bits.

TM

Rockwell charges an arm and a leg for anything, including knowledge.

Click to expand...

And people use their "air time" to bash Rockwell when the opportunity arises.

I have not seen any accredited colleges offering free tuition/fees to everyone.

How many days a week do you work for free?

In general I agree that Stephen's post this time is a little "fishy". The cost for most of the major manufacturers can be found online. The "how good" can vary depending on a number of variables.

On the other hand Stephen is in the PLC business and this is the "LARGEST GATHERING" of plc users in the world, it makes sense to ask any questions here that may help his company provide more and better services to the customer.

I dont have to do any legwork, I already have some of this info. Note that prices can vary because most of them also offer "packages" or a "pre-paid go to what you want" that will lower the costs.

AB training and costs can be found here:
http://www.rockwellautomation.com/services/training/schedules.html

Siemens has changed things a little, seems to require registering now...their training info can be found here:
http://www.sitrain.com/html_76/f_11.html

GE training here: http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/gefanuc/training/GEFTrainingMainHome.html?SMSESSION=NO

I can list much much more. I have also been to several. I can guarantee that Rockwell does not cost more than any of the others....in general, in some cases they offer more "days" for less money. I can just about guarantee that Rockwell is not the most expensive when it comes to plc's and software. I have to state that I have yet to goto a Rockwell seminar or class that did not have a knowledgeable instructor...not Joe Blow that works in the warehouse...I can not say that about others.

I have also attended both Rockwell, Siemens, and other sales/seminar/training events...these are not actually designed to "train" you to use the devices, its to get you familiar with them so you would consider buying them....hence thats why its free and in many cases lunch is provided.

No offense to Russ or Steve but the worse sales reps and training I have had was with GE. The first clue that should have warned me was when I needed LogicMaster (not in stock) and they wanted $150 extra for shipping. The salesMEN did not have a clue. The training class instructor did not show so one of the salesman was giving the class. I did not think it could get worse but when I was in TN it got worse. As a side note I have not found that big a price difference between GE, AB or Siemens....it depends on the multiplier and distributor.

I guess I have to go get my avatar back.

I once chatted with an applications guy for Wago.

He mentioned they offered free training on their product,
you just had to pay to get/stay there ( I think somewhere in Wisconsin?)

I've never used the Wago system, so I don't know more info about their product/training etc.

But that seems like a fair deal to me (if still offered).

-Mike

Hmmmmm.

I thought I was at the right place. Now, I'm not sure. This is a forum where questions are asked and ideas are shared? Maybe not? Maybe there is a secret hand shake or a code that everyone speaks in for only the priviledged few.

For all who are conspiracy theorists, sorry to burst your bubble, but there isn't any. I just wanted to know what other manufacturers offer. Figured, that here would be as good a place as any to ask, in that of the 14,000+ members, some have probably taken a course or two.

I do however, consider it an honor that I am held to such a higher standard, as compared to anyone else in the forum. I really don't deserve it, but thank you anyways.

For those of you who don't like me...is interesting, seeing as we have never met or spoken...so your judging me by some words on a screen. It would be interesting to know what I have done, that has so many up in arms. Have some of my posts crossed the line...no. If they did Phil would have told me. Have they come close to the line...certainly.

As a manufacturer, there appears to be a fine line that I have to walk, that others don't have to, because of what I do. Any posts in response to a question will (and do) offer any insight that I can provide. If the person who posts is looking for alternatives or suggestions for controllers, I will most certainly offer mine first, in that it is what I know. I will rarely post to a thread that I can not provide a benefit to the thread starter. Why waste their time with irrelevant information.

Some of the questions I ask are to obtain public opinion. Whether I know the answer or not is immaterial because I am not looking for my answer, but the opinions of others. I don't think the same way that others think and they don't think the same way I do. This site is full of diverse individuals with diverse opinions.

Tim,

Thanks for your comments, support and answer.

I did know that AB charged an arm and leg, but was hoping for some sort of currency translation...So, just how much are arms and legs going for today?

Potter...thanks for your input.

Maybe there are other people interested in knowing more about what is offered? What countries they are offered in? How much it costs? Is what is offered in one country the same as others? Potter's inquiry.

Jiri and Mark,

If someone else asked this very question, how would you have responded? I would have to believe it wouldn't be in the same manner as you did.

And, before I posted this, chose four different manufacturer's web sites, to see if I could find any pricing for training....0 for 4. FYI - went to AB, AD, Omron and Idec. (edit - Found one with the help of Ron's link)


So, now I know there are basically different levels of training...basic product introduction (usually free) and more indepth training...this is what I am curious about.

I see I got left out.

Idec I would not waste my time with even if they had training.

I forgot about Omron:
http://oeiweb.omron.com/Train-Info.asp

Ron,

I didn't forget about you...I edited you in towards the end.

And thanks for the links. Some web sites are challenging to navigate.

Well since I've been called by name:

For those of you who don't like me...

Click to expand...

..Never said that. It is my opinion that you enjoy "air time" for Entertron (which I just added to) JUST LIKE Ron (and others) does for his site. If this is right or wrong, I offer no opinion because it makes me no difference.

If someone else had posted the question I wouldn't know whether the poster was smart enough to do what Jiri suggested. I assumed as a business owner you were able to.

You're right Mr. Luft, I don't know you personally. But every so often you get hit with this type of comment and I wonder would that be the case if you removed the Entertron portion of your signature?

There has only been one person who has visited this forum whom I cannot get along with. He knows who he is.

Stephen,

I have been known to promote my product on this web site as well but there is a difference between us. You participate mainly when it suits your own interests i.e. "Would you pay for a programming software".

One of your posts obviously aimed at telling us that you have a free software. This post is along the same lines. I don't recall you answering or posing too many questions that have nothing to
do with your own self interests. There are other people who promote their products, services or web sites on this forum but these paople have in my book earned the right to do so because
they participate and provide invaluable advice and help to others
regardless whether it will sell their product or service or not.

Personally, I find the training that I have attended to be grossly overpriced. I have no idea how much it costs, but my manager whines about costs any time I mention I need to be trained on X product.
I think they try to justify the extreme costs by padding the courses for additional time. When they develop the labs, it only teaches you keystrokes, not the thought processes used to get the desired results. That only comes with spending time on the equipment in the field.

Just my opinion.

Greetings to all,



I had originally posted the following thoughts yesterday ... but then I totally deleted the whole post ... things started getting a little rowdy and I didn’t want to just throw more fuel on the fire ... I wouldn’t be making this post now, except that KBrodin has brought up something which is near and dear to my heart ...

When they develop the labs, it only teaches you keystrokes, not the thought processes used to get the desired results.

Click to expand...

and with that in mind ...



personally, I look at “PLC Training” this way ... consider that there are TWO main categories of students ...



(1) the “engineering types” ... these are the people who decide what brand and type of equipment to buy ... and then program the equipment ... and also create the wiring diagrams for the I/O ... and do other sorts of “design” things ... in a nutshell, these are the people who get the machinery up and running - and then they go away ...



(2) the “technician types” ... these are the people who must keep the machinery running - and repair it when it breaks ... yes, they might occasionally make minor changes to the PLC programs ... but by-and-large their interaction with the PLC is limited to tracing a “circuit” through the control scheme ... in most cases the “circuit” begins with an output device in the field which is malfunctioning ... in simple terms, the machine is broken ... the “technician type” just wants to get the machine back up and running again - and the quicker the better ...



in the old days (before PLCs) a competent technician could start at an output device (for example: a solenoid valve) in the field and manually trace the wiring back to the control cabinet ... then on into the control cabinet ... through any associated relays, timers, etc. ... then back out of the cabinet ... and finally end up at an input device in the field ... in other words, just physically follow the wire to trace the control circuit ... the problem has to be along there somewhere ...



now that PLC control is being used, things are different ... now when the technician traces the wiring from an output device in the field, he runs head-on into the PLC ... to the untrained, this thing is a mysterious black box ... so where does the technician go from here? ... sure, the problem is probably NOT really inside the PLC ... much more than likely it’s still just a loose wire or a malfunctioning input device somewhere out in the field ... but how does the technician go about tracing the control circuit now? ... usually without some type of PLC training, he can’t ...



so now to your question ... consider a “PLC training” class which is made up of BOTH types of students ...



how much benefit will the “technician types” gain from the following topics: “comparisons of I/O counts” ... “processor execution speed” ... “available networking options” ... “programming strategies” ... etc. ... etc. ... ?



and on the other hand, how much benefit will the “engineering types” gain from topics such as: “forcing I/O” ... “monitoring bit status on the input and output tables” ... “software techniques for tracing an address through the ladders” ... etc. ... etc. ... ?



common sense tells us that there needs to be at least two types of PLC classes ... unfortunately common sense doesn’t always prevail when the classes are designed - or when they’re marketed ...



over the years, the most common complaint that I’ve heard against most manufacturers’ PLC training is that it turned out to be a “sales pitch” which was taught right out of the product catalogs ...



now in fairness, I think that at least a few of the students in those classes actually did need - and did benefit from - the material that was covered ... but let’s think for a minute ... statistically speaking, how many “technician type” students exist for every single “engineering type” student? ... let’s say “10 to 1” just for discussion ... given those statistics, consider that the “disappointment” ratio for most manufacturers’ PLC training is bound to be something in the “10 to 1” range ... the dice are loaded ... and in my experience, the ratio of “technician type” to “engineering type” students is much more pronounced than just “10 to 1” ...



and so ... I offer these comments as food for thought ... and along those same lines, I invite you to read this short essay that someone sent me several years ago ... Maybe Teaching is a Bad Idea ...



after you’ve read it, consider that most manufacturers’ PLC training seems to be based on the premise that the sun is always shining, the birds are always singing, and life is always lovely ... in other words, the instructor invariably concentrates on how things are “supposed” to work ... that approach might work well for an “engineering type” student ... but how well does it serve all of the “technician type” students in the class? ... they’re trying to learn troubleshooting and problem-solving techniques ... so where are the troubles - and where are the problems? ...



and I think that’s what KBrodin was complaining about ... he’s not alone ...