Delta V

Anyone ever use DELTA V?

Seems to be a software based DCS type interface somewhat beyond Wonderware, using ControLogix or any open DCS type equipment, perhaps as a competition to RSView.

GOOD?

Bad?

Ugly?

Thanks.....kc

I'll second this question as well...I've got a project to evaluate one in a water treatment plant upgrade and Delta-V is one of the key options.

What I saw was not overly impressive.

Glorified WonderWare with DCS attached.

Maybe I was missing something.

I don't know how expensive it is.

With Waste Water, I would think Cimplicty would be fine, but I do not get involved with it much.

Maybe Tom has run across it in a WW application.

Delta V must have some good marketting.

I hadn't heard of it a month ago, and it just keeps popping up now.

regards.....kc

I did one (relatively small) project with Delta-V about five years ago. By DCS standards (I'm used to Bailey System 6/Symphony and Foxborough I/A) it was fairly easy and intuitive to get into.

The project wasn't big enough to find out what the possibilities or limitations were, though.

Delta V has been around for at least ten years. It's owned by Emerson, which owns a lot of process control companies. When my plant installed a DCS in 1995, Delta V, Foxboro I/A, and Honeywell were the three we evaluated. Delta V was the most user friendly. At that time it had an Intellution user interface, but Emerson has since sold Intellution to GE, so I don't know what the current graphics package is. It was mentioned that it looked like Wonderware, but I doubt it's Wonderware, since Invensys owns Foxboro, and Wonderware.

BTW we chose Foxboro I/A because it was more robust, and did not run on windows machines, it used Solaris instead. Now 10 years later, Foxboro is slowly pushing all thier customers to Windows.

Some day Bill Gates will own everything.


Ken

We are beginning to install it here. I like it alot. I have yet to really use it, but it looks to be very good.


But on the other hand, we could do the same things with ControlLogix, it would require more work to do, but it still can be done. The real advantage lies in the tight integration of all aspects of the process database and the fact that it can handle so much process related I/O. And run the PID's associated.


David

This is from a few years ago:
1. Stuck on NT4.0 for the longest time. I think it finally support XP, skipping 2K entirely. All pc had to be Dell and must be purchased from Emerson at a 30-40% higher price. They claimed the bios are different.
2. Hardware costs 25% more than AB. They also charge a really expensive extra licensing based on how many IO's you are using.
3. The development software dongle cost 10K and expires after 1 year!
4. Poor support. Closest support group for socal is Las Vegas. All telephone support has been moved to India.

I do agree with DaveW about the cost. We have a Vendor in the next state that has been working very hard to get it here so I think we will have support. I have yet to use tech support, so I do not have an opinion on that as of yet.

David

I have done some evaluation on Delta V for some upcoming projects. It looks as though the consulting firm that will do the integration on one of the projects have pushed our management so hard for so long that Delta V will be used over our (process control's) protests. They have used it before so they can copy and paste most of it to make their part easier. It uses an Intellution front end from before Emerson sold Intellution, so the graphics are iFix. The I/O looks similar to GE series one stuff to me. Module density is low and the I/O was unimpressive especially for the price. The licensing is by I/O point so they can low ball the upfront price and then really hammer you from then on. I am biased toward PLC/HMI systems but Delta V doesn't impress me much.

Steve

An ethylene cracker plant in China uses (multiple) Delta V systems.

Quote from article at Controlglobal.com
"Overall, the complex includes more than 48,000 loops, with about 166,000 I/O tags. Approximately 25,000 points are hardwired to the automation system. There are more than 70,000 cables in the facility."
. . . .
The complex’s digital architecture integrates 10 of Emerson’s DeltaV systems (See Figure 3 below) with one global historian and remote operations functions. All 10 automation systems are managed from one centralized control room.
http://www.controlglobal.com/articles/2005/525.html?SESSID=757b9879bb6cc34109495f6e217d7577

Pretty impressive.

Dan

DeltaV looks good but personally I think not having an in house developed graphics interface hurts its power.


The best DCS on the market right now for mine is Yokogawa's CS3000 platform. My site uses the old CS which runs on Unix, but we have one CS3000 HIS to play around with. Uses object oriented everything and has full simulation function which lets you test control drawings and graphics windows fully without even downloading. All in the one package. Runs on XP. I want it but my site is committed to CS

has no capability to upload the user program from the controller. They can only upload data values. can only execute as fast as once every 100 msec. No solution for pulsed outputs such as control of resistive heaters in extrusion applications. only supports FBD, SFC, and a limited version of ST supports a “partial download” form of online editing.
Redundant controllers can be flash updated with no loss of control.
offers a redundant terminal block which connects to a pair of I/O modules and provides a single termination point for the user. Redundant I/O modules are treated as a single module by the programming software and are automatically swapped on failure. Terminal block does the switching of the field connection to the I/O and is a single point of failure

allows you to save control templates in a library for use in other projects



All this information is relative of course. But that's what I found

The previous post reminded me of one of the big detriments to Delta V in our evaluations. The analog loop scan times were very slow compared to other systems. They start with a best of 100ms and as the system loads up can easily go to 500ms and beyond. That spec and the complex and probably very expensive licensing structure (as I recall, redundant items count as two points for licensing) really turned our process group away from them. However somewhere up the management line they seem to have been pushed into agreeing with the engineering firm and it looks as though we will have a major process here on Delta V. Who knows, Maybe it is as great as Emerson says...

Steve

I started in Control field with the old RS3 DCS by the same company. To someone who was new to control system it was great. The main strength of a DCS are ease of programming (pre-built blocks) and strong analog ability. I assume Delta V is the same.

Keep in mind, many PLC guys have a bias against DCS, much like me when I first touched an PLC => ( OMG, wtf is this ugly ladder thing). I know Delta V is supposely a "hybrid" system but you should compare it against other DCS or "hybrid" systems.

A user's perspective

Background: I have installed three DeltaV systems on different applications thus far and after learning its idiosyncrasy, it performs very well with minimal programming. At the time of this posting, I'm in a majority as 75% liked using it (3 yes/ 1 no). I offer the following comments for a user's perspective and hope to avoid any flaming if I'm way off base in your mind.

It's not the "perfect solution" for every control application (there probably never will be...) but it is fairly easy to get a DCS like system up and operational. (Note: DCS implies Process Control) It's built-in historian, plotting, and Tuner sold me on the system, the extras such as fuzzy, neural, and model predictor control I have not had time to apply very often. You can do bit manipulations if required but you can also do just about everything with variables that are boolean, integers, or single precision floating point via their BASIC language and scripting in the HMI.

I’m from a testing lab environment where everyday may be different than the last, so "Discreet/ Repetitive" task are typically different than what is seen in manufacturing. Test unit cycling is anywhere from seconds to hours for various equipment we test with "process control" required to allow the actual test facilities provide the prescribed conditions for the unit under test (UUT). Most control loops are heat transfer and liquid flow related but also have some very fast gas loops that will blow relief valves if you do not anticipate what a UUT will do when it is told to cycle on, change modes, etc.

As for programming background, I started in HPL and FORTRAN, then learned a new language every year for over 20 years including PASCAL, assembler, then many versions of BASIC, TI and Siemens PLCs using ladder. Not much experience in C other than learning enough of it to assist my kids when they took a programming course in high school. With DeltaV, FBD, SFC and interfacing to the Ifix HMI were added to my vocabulary as this was my first exposure to a DCS.

Overall, hardware/ software cost is higher than most other system but labor savings make up for that expense fairly quickly once you are familiar with the system.

DaveW said:

This is from a few years ago:
1. Stuck on NT4.0 for the longest time. I think it finally support XP, skipping 2K entirely. All pc had to be Dell and must be purchased from Emerson at a 30-40% higher price. They claimed the bios are different.

Click to expand...

You can purchase your own Dells but must install the software via their cookbook installation, it will disable automatic Windows updates and some other standard PC setups we typically use. Try running this past a large company’s IT department and they will probably want to keep you as an island off the company’s main LAN unless you can guarantee that there will be good network security. Though they are up to WinXP, only SP1 is allowed at this time.

smiller said:

... Module density is low and the I/O was unimpressive especially for the price. ...

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I use the 32 channel 24VDC DI and DO modules with isolation relays before attaching to the equipment. Isn't 32 good module density? They use to have only 8 channel cards.

Hundikoer said:

Negative points:
supports local DeltaV I/O. They can talk over DeviceNet, AS-i, and Profibus DP to field devices, but they have no concept of remotely located I/O modules.

Click to expand...

Their Remote I/O is focused on Foundation Fieldbus, I have not interfaced to the other networks mentioned so can not comment on it.

Hundikoer said:

… has no capability to upload the user program from the controller. They can only upload data values. …

Click to expand...

I don’t see this as an issue, you have to program any PLC up initially and their Pro+ PC software keeps track of the last downloaded program info and any changes to the program variables. Soapbox: If you don’t have good software change control, you do not have a secure application. If a "mechanic" can get in and change the program, how do you guarantee the PLCs performance? My philosophy is: I’m responsible for the software until someone else changes it, at that time, they assume responsible and liability. I understand this isn't the case everywhere but if you leave the keys in the ignition, don't complain when someone wrecks your car. I allow an interface for the user to change variables but then do integrity checking before applying them to make sure that the value is within an acceptable range.

Hundikoer said:

…can only execute as fast as once every 100 msec. …

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This should be plenty fast for most "process control" applications. An exception would be for something using vision or trying to do direct motion control.

Hundikoer said:

… No solution for pulsed outputs such as control of resistive heaters in extrusion applications. …

Click to expand...

You can define their 8 channel DO cards to be time proportioning on a per channel basis, then set up timers down to at least 1 ms. I have used these on motor operated drivers with good success as long as the motor can handle the duty cycle.

Hundikoer said:

... supports a "partial download" form of online editing.

A Control Module (somewhat similar to a routine) must be taken offline to download changes to that Control Module and then put back on scan. All other Control Modules in the controller continue to execute while this occurs.

Click to expand...

Yes, and this is a good thing as you can disable the loop that is to be downloaded at it's current output, download and then bumplessly restart the control without shutting down the process.


I hope this posts helps answer some of the questions others have had. I'm by no means a DeltaV expert, I call our distributor frequently to discuss "how can you do that?" and they usually can pose a solution within 5 minutes that solves my problem.