Recipies vs PLC data handling

Hello everybody!

I need to implement the options to run different products in a machine. The settings for the different products would be data only, like servopositions, limitvalues and so on... Which would make it perfect for the recipes system in protool.

My question though is wich option would be best, putting the recipes in the plc or the protool.

My pros and cons for this is:
- Saving in the plc would give us the option to backup the data on a regular timeframe using the wincc network its connected to.

- Saving in the plc requires some more work to create the recipes handling program (I already developed this plc program, it's just a matter of implementing it in this machine)

- Saving in the plc will be less efficient and user friendly since I have to develop all the program functions my self.

- Using protool will give me a better recipes handling system.

- Using protool will cause problems for backing up the recipes, unless I'm saving them onto a memorycard (expensive).


What's your experience with this?

Cheers
Borte

Although you already have your PLC for this project, something to consider for the future is that a PC-based controller can much more easily handle recipes and data than a limited memory, proprietary PLC. In fact, we use SoftPLC which has a RAM resident database in addition to the data table registers and is ideal for exactly this application. You eliminate communication of the recipes between 2 devices and there is much less logic required to use different data sets by having the recipes in the database instead of using data table registers. This database is great for sorting and warehouse applications as well.

I would definetly use the protool system if I had a pc based controller available, but in this paricular case I only have a TP27 and TP270 available so my options are a bit limited.

Cheers
Borte

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the applications that I have used with Protool and a PLC, the recipe manager does NOT STORE ANY DATA. The PLC is the storage device, the Protool PC is only storing a view of the "Structure" and Data place holders.

Are you talking the MP370, or the industrial terminal?

My experience is only with the 370's, and as far as I know, all of my data is ONLINE in the PLC. The HMI just reads and writes the data.

Good Luck, it sounds like a perfect tool for your application.

Borte,
I manage recipes in ProTool (TP270) for the reasons you listed. To handle your last concern about backing up data, I do use the ProTool functions "Export_Data_Records" and "Import_Data_Records" to backup the recipes to CSV file on a compact flash disk.

As for your comment about the memory card being expensive (assuming you are refering to the compact flash disk), I do not use Siemens compact flash disks. I use SanDisk which I can get for much less money.

kcarlen,
I use a TP270 and configure the recipe in ProTool to store the files in the HMI memory. I then use the import/export functions to copy those files in CSV format to the compact flash so I can put those files on other machines.

I'm using ProTool's recipe system with ProTool Pro on a PC-based OS. There the recipes are definately stored off-line (i.e. on the PC) and transferred to the PLC either automatically or on demand, depending on how you configure them.

I've never worked with OPs/MPs, only with PC-based systems, so I've no idea whether the recipe storage is handled differently there, or not.

Hi Borte

Some of the simplest 'recipe' operations I've seen have had all the data (and code) stored in the PLC.

Basically create a UDT as a template for your recipe 'ingredients'. Then create multiple instances of this datatype in a DB and give them sensible names - 'Product A', 'Product B', 'Product C' etc. Add an additional one called 'Working'. You can then use a single button push on the HMI to do a selection on which recipe to load to 'Working' using SFC20 BLKMOV. The entire control code is written around 'Working' and you just swap the appropriate values in when required.

If you've already witten all the routines and processes, you may need one additional FC to map all the 'Working' addresses to your own code.

One of the big advantages of this type of system is that you can still operate even if the HMI has failed or is disconnected. A couiple of hard-wired inputs to allow for selection and confirmation can permit the process to carry on.

Regards

Ken

Hello guys!

Thanks for all the replys and sorry for late feedback, I've been stuck in meetings...

Ken M: I already have the program for "program selection" ready on the plc and it's already running on a different plc. Working fine by the way.

Imi'ike: I can use the Protool and have it to save it to a memorycard, but somehow the options of saving it in the plc kinda seems more tempting. I don't really know why though. Could be due to the fact that I have the plc but not the memorycard for the panels.

My basic question was just is it better to save it in the plc or better to save it in the panel (using protool). I think it might me easier to go with the plc route since I already have the program running on a plc. And it's built to be versatile so adapting it shouldn't be a big problem. The main drawback with this is that someone have to connect to the plc to allow more products to be defined.

Cheers
Borte