Vijeo and Cimplicity

This may sound like a rant, but bear with me. I promise to ask for help at the end.

I just tried to load Vijeo designer 4.2.0 software on my laptop. Vijeo is the new programming tool for Magellis operator interfaces. At the beginning of the install, i got a message saying (paraphrasing here) the software could not be loaded because frameworx.exe was detected.

I called modicon tech support and was told that the error message came up because i had cimplicity loaded on the machine. The tech support guy said that a "marketing decision" had been made (note this would be entirely different from a compatibility issue) and modicon did not want to allow thier software to be loaded with cimplicity, which has competing product lines.

I have already called my salesman and started raising cain. But so far, the response i am getting seems to be that they are not supposed to help customers with my problem. I think my salesman's words were that "This decision was made by someone much higher up on the food chain and he cannot help me". Of course, he's still following up, but i got the distinct impression that the automation specialist he talked to knew how to help me, but wasn't supposed to.

Modicon's tech support told me that my only option was to uninstall cimplicity. He also told me that none of the older magellis programs would work because i had an XBTG6330.

I did not have this problem when i loaded concept on the laptop, so this program may be a trial balloon by them to guage the reaction. I gotta tell ya, I'm steaming mad about this, and i hope I'm not the only one. Modicon used to be my favorite PLC product. Modsoft's 984LL is the standard by which i judge other programming interfaces. But, between the horrible Concept product they put out, and now this move, which seems reminiscent of what microsoft was doing with internet explorer when they were busted a while back, I am very likely through with them.

I am a systems integrator, so i get to see a lot of products, and i get to have a say in whats used for a lot of my jobs. So I will not be able to wash my hands of them entirely, but I won't have to deal with them very often.

The problem is, i still have this project to complete, and unloading cimplicity is not an option as far as I'm concerned. I am considering renaming frameworx.exe, trying to load vijeo, then changing the name back just to see if that will defeat thier little "marketing decision". I'll probably check with GE's tech support before i do that though. I'm also considering making my modicon salesman supply me with a laptop that has vijeo loaded on it if we don't find another solution. But those are the only ideas i have so far, and neither seems likely to work.

So, has anyone else out there run into this? I tried every search engine i could think of and found no references to this problem anywhere on the web. Does anyone know a work around or even just have more information on why modicon made this move? Is modicon targeting only GE software, or will other programs cause the same problem? Cause i have Allen-Bradley software, Intellution, Wonderware, and Lookout all loaded on this machine as well.

</rant>

-jeff

Occasionally vendors do try this. I heard that Wonderware tried this with Citect Plant2Business for a short time.
It does not usually last long.
Also, threaten to report this to you local trade commission, whatever its called in America, since this may violate local competition laws (it does in Australia).
The bad publicity is not going to help them much.

I find this story so incredable, it seems well, not crediable. 1) Legally something like this might require open & obivious disclosure. Anything in the documentation about this neet little "feature"? If not, consult with an attorney who knows something about UCC.

If this is truly your problem, then you need to make a LOT of noise. You actually already did to some extent by posting it on this forum. Good!! Now call, or email your Modicon sales guy back and direct him to this thread. Then see what happens....

This defies belief!! Whose sales volume does Modicon expect to hurt by their actions? If this is not a compatibility issue, then Modicon is hereby nominated for the corporate Darwin awards.

One thing you might want to try: Transfer your Cimplicity license to another computer. Then uninstall Cimplicity. Install Vijeo. Reinstall Cimplicity and see if Vijeo still runs. If they both play together nicely when Vijeo is installed first, you can transfer your Cimplicity license back to that computer.

If I am not mistaken (and I know I am not) this volates Microsoft licensing policy too. MS may want to dominate but they dont allow others the right to block programs because of competition.

This will bite them in the backside because its up there with Sony and the spyware thing.

This can not be done. Do yall have a good corporate shark (lawyer) who would get on the phone & use a few 6 syllable words coupled with the threat of lawsuit?

I've had my corporate guys get into a few other things, and people react completely differently when they have to deal with the sharks.

Actually guys, It might be legal, however Jeff should be entitled to a refund. If it's strickly set up so that it only blocks their application, (not others), they may have the right to do so. You might be able to load, or reload Cimplicity and Cimplicity might run, but not Vijeo. It's all about legal technacalities.

I'm with elevmike on this one. Make a LOT of noise. But don't just point them to this thread. Post an e-mail address to thier tech support so everyone can tell them how boneheaded this is.

I'm a beginner in this field of computing but I can tell you now that I don't support companys like this and I'll never buy anything from this one.

The last MS product I bought was DOS 6.22. The only reason I have a copy of win98 to run RSLogix on is because my sister-in-law gave me hers when she upgraded to WinXP. I stick to my guns on things like this for life, weather practicle or not.

This is truely disturbing.

No, that's not a rant at all. I'd cancel the PO, package up the software and the Magelis terminal, and ship them all back to your Telemecanique distributor, along with a copy of the PO for <any other brand HMI and software>.

When I checked out Vijeo I saw that it was the same software as GE Proficy machine edition. I found out that Pro-Face by digital electronics provides the panels (XBTG models) to Modicon and they brand label them,tweak the software a touch and jack up the price. I just specified the Pro-Face units for a project due to the more extensive comm options and a lower price for the same thing. I'll have to buy their software at about $450 but this option may allow you to shove it in Modicon's face and get what you wanted too. I have been continually amazed at Modicon's (Telemecanique)attitudes toward their customer base. Modicon was by far my favorite PLC until about a year ago when Telemecanique made their presence known. I now look at other brands first. I just spec'ed Compactlogix for a project due to Modicon's monster Unity software and unimpressive Premium PLC. We have about 200 PLC's at my plant and Modicon is 90% of the installed. Our future projects will probably use other PLC's because Telemecanique has let Modicon fall so far in the toilet.

smiller said:

When I checked out Vijeo I saw that it was the same software as GE Proficy machine edition. I found out that Pro-Face by digital electronics provides the panels (XBTG models) to Modicon and they brand label them,tweak the software a touch and jack up the price. I just specified the Pro-Face units for a project due to the more extensive comm options and a lower price for the same thing. I'll have to buy their software at about $450 but this option may allow you to shove it in Modicon's face and get what you wanted too. I have been continually amazed at Modicon's (Telemecanique)attitudes toward their customer base. Modicon was by far my favorite PLC until about a year ago when Telemecanique made their presence known. I now look at other brands first. I just spec'ed Compactlogix for a project due to Modicon's monster Unity software and unimpressive Premium PLC. We have about 200 PLC's at my plant and Modicon is 90% of the installed. Our future projects will probably use other PLC's because Telemecanique has let Modicon fall so far in the toilet.

Click to expand...

Smiller, "just" 4 points ...
1. Schneider has bought Digital with its famous Pro-Face products in 2002. Now, hopefully, both Pro-Face and XBT are similar products. Pro-face is widely opened in term of connection and XBT is dedicated to Modicon interfacing.
2. Telemecanique has not dropped Modicon at all ... Schneider has three brands (Telemecanique, Merlin Gerin and Square D). For the Telemecanique brand, Modicon is the ONLY available family name (former telemcanique TSX has even disappeared) and both Premium, Momentum or Quantum are Modicon PLCs. If one has been dropped ... it's TSX !
3. Sure Modicon is step by step dropping 984 LL in favour of IEC languages ... but they don't drop Quantum at all. What about the new Hot-Standby CPUs ? What about the Unity CPUs with Ethernet embedded, 8Mb data, Multitasking O.S, ... ? What about the new Profibus Module ? and there is much more ...
4. I guess you're kidding when you judge Premium unimpressive compared to CompactLogix ... Hey, you're comparing a Motorcycle with a Bicycle here. Premium is the fastest CPU of the Modicon range with advanced modules (Motion , High-Level PID, Web Server, ... it's not a micro PLC like CompactLogix. I would have understood if you had compared with ControlLogix

If the problem is that the install package is looking for a file, but the software would otherwise run after the install, and you have a legit version of Cimplicity, back it up and uninstall Cimplicity. Then you can install Vijeo designer, reinstall the Cimplicity and you might be set. I guess out of principal you might just tell them to stick it and go to a competitor. I know that would infuriate me to no end. There are still number of companies that believe that the customer comes first.

I've got a new Modicon Premium PLC project coming up, so I did a little digging with my local support. I've come to the following conclusions:

1) This problem should not affect projects that use the Unity programming software only. (Good news for me!) The problem is strictly with the Vijeo operator interface software.

2) As stated above, the problem is because of common roots between GE and Modicon with the ProFace product. To quote "However, what I do know is that they both use the same development engine or framework even though they are different software packages. The XBTG terminals was acquired from Proface ( GE) and modified to suite Schneider."

3) The proposed solution to the conflict, although it displays a certain arrogance and insensitivity to customer needs, is feasible. "Anyway to get around this issue, install a dual boot operating system on the same PC and have each installed under separate OS."

4) I was unlikely to use Modicon HMI products anyway, but this makes it absolutely certain that I won't be using them.

5) It is my opinion that this was caused by stupidity, not malice. In the first place, at least in the US, it is my feeling that GE is increasing market share and Modicon is at best holding steady. For Modicon to think they would displace GE installations with a stunt like this would be boneheaded beyond belief. It seems more likely that the problem was unanticipated, that when it was discovered fixing it proved expensive, and some manager with a cavalier attitude towards customer's needs decided it just wasn't worth the trouble.

6) Regardless of whether it was malice or stupidity, this is not the kind of thing that is going to win a lot of new customers to Modicon!

OK guys, it been a while, but here's the followup on all of this. First off, in order to finish the project, i had to uninstall cimplicity. Later, i needed cimplicity again, so i just re-installed it and cimplicity worked fine. Then a week later when i needed Vijeo again, it would not work, even after i uninstalled cimpicity. I had to uninstall Vijeo as well and re-register it. Total Pain in the butt.

Then, i heard on the internet that the new version of vijeo was supposed to solve the problem. I called my salesman and ripped him a new one for not telling me about this fix. A couple of SquareD reps came down to see me and brought me the new software, and both software packages now play nice together. Both are fully functional, and I've even had them both running at the same time (Gotta tell you, i was worried about creating some sort of paradox the first time i tried that ... i had to steele myself against the possibility that i might lose the laptop altogether).

For the record, the original version of vijeo I had was 4.2, and 4.3 is what I am using now. They also showed me the new unity software while they were here, and i gotta say, it looks pretty good. I cannot wait until i get a project where i can use it. Its light years ahead of anything concept could ever hope to be. (yeah i know, not exactly glowing praise saying its better than concept, but I'm not ready to say its better than RSLogix or Cimplicity yet)


-jeff

I ran into the Vijeo not compatible with Cimplicity problem last year, and I personally talked to the Vijeo product manager about it. The short form version is that "yes, we knew it wasn't compatible", "No, it was more of accidental stupidity then intentional malice" and "Hopefully the next version will fix it". Glad to hear that 4.3 fixed some of that.

Schneider bought Digital, which makes Proface and (here is where the Cimplicity problem came in) private labels screens for GE. There was some internal DLL problem between the Cimplicity stuff and the Modicon stuff that had the same DLL name but different versions that were not compatible. I suppose none of the bright lads involved ever imagined that a System Integrator might actually use more than one vendors software. The previous version (4.1) would happly install on a machine with Cimplicity, and happly break Cimplicity. At least 4.2 doesn't break anything on the way in.

The (probably should have been internal but for some reason it's open and available on eclipse.modicon.com if you have a support contract) clearly shows the Proface / Magelis / Digital connection, and cleary documents that they have made an intentional decision to make the Proface stuff not compatible with the Magelis even though they use the same actual hardware.

From my perspective the new Magelis has some nice enough things, but the complete lack of integration with the rest of the Modicon software (no tag import from Concept or even Unity, requiring huge edits to the CSV files; no conversion of existing XBTF projects) and the step backwards in hardware design (no quick mounts, non-removable power connections) leave me a bit cold on the product.

For nearly as much fun, try installing Cimplicity PE on a machine with ProWorx. Then call Modicon to reauthorize ProWorx, because authorizing Cimplicity PE will delete the ProWorx authorization.