PLC on eBay

I've seen lately 2 companies which are OEM and there equipment are sold between 100K and 300K.

They where purchasing there PLCs on eBay. Brand new machine and brand new control systems.

Have you seen this before?

Is it moraly acceptable?

They told me they never have any default unit !!!

Good question... I guess (to me) it would depend on if they bought brand new in the box PLCs or not. If its brand new I don't know that it matters where they got it as long as they got it legally.

Not sure

It depends......If I were paying for new components, I would expect to receive new parts, not purchased from EBay.

If the OEM were trying save money, and passed the savings onto me and the OEM warrantied the parts same as new, it would be open for discussion.

Keep in mind that eBay doesn't mean used or not in warranty. Think of eBay as a big store that has both new and used stuff... The question should be is it new or used? Under warranty or not?

if it's new, and sold as new, I don't see a problem with an OEM saving money. However, if it's used & they're selling it as new...this isn't just unethical, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

They did not seem to care if it was new or not. They only had the boxes. This means the units where shiped with original boxes. Some opened, some not.

Price seemed the ONLY factor here.

And NO they would not dare to mention it to anybody, except my sneakee eyes gave me a hint. One unit was had a few scratches and i was going to tease there mechanics on how the machined the holes when one guy told me these are not new unit ... and so on.

stasis said:

...it's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

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Please explain.

We've bought stuff on ebay. However...

1)Only new equipment goes on new projects. Reasons being economic, a single shutdown will cost us much more then anthing saved. One must presume that new equipment would have a longer service life expecentcy then used equipment. Since we are responsable for the care of the installiation there is nothing to be gained buy installing used equipment that will have a shorter service life.

2)If we used new equipment (like unused overstock) bought from others then the manufacture, then we accept the risk of out of warranty equipment on our own.

3)Anything used we come by is used on in-house projects, or for testing, or is to stock replacement parts for obsolete equipment.

From my personal point of view, trying to save a few hundred dollars on a ~$200K project just dosnt make sense. So go ahead and buy from ebay or whoever; just dont put used equipment in to new panels, and back it all up with readily available replacement parts stocked by you.

if they knowingly sell equipment as new when it's used, they are liable for fraud. If you know this to be true, then blow the whistle & make them replace the devices OR show receipts/warranty info. This isn't being a tattle-tale, it's possibly saving someones life.

Statis,

The legal thing may be a tougher road then you may think. Did they actually represent it as being all new from the OEM?..Likely not.

Does installing used PLC equipment actually create a risk to life and limb? If so then the new equipment would also create the same risk, because in that case the design of the system as a whole would be the safety problem & NOT the used equipment. Everything (new or used) is subject to breakdown, any failures should be fail safe anyway.

I'm with Mike on this one. I think many of us would infer that a 'new' machine would contain all 'new' components. However, unless is was specifically stated that all new, never used or pre-owned components will be used, the OEM is free to do what they want as long as they back up their warranty. Granted, if it got out that an OEM was doing this it would most likely impact thier sales. And the ethics may be a bit cloudy. but they are most likely safe legally.


I also don'tbelieve that a 'used' component is inherently less safe than a new one for the reason Mike gave. In fact, a case can be made that a lightly used component is more reliable than a brand new one since light use weeds out infant mortality. The safety aspect of this has to do with system tolerance to failure, not the elimination of failure.

Now, what constitutes 'new'. If I were buying this, I would take new to mean never used. I don't care if it passed through ten owners on it's way to me or that the OEM bought it at 5% of market value. If he can do that, good for him. I would also accept lightly used, as a matter of fact. It all comes down to warranty coverage and immediate availability as far as I am concerned.

Keith

elevmike said:

Did they actually represent it as being all new from the OEM?..Likely not.

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that's what was implied by the OP, that it was being passed off as new. If the devices are used & being sold as new, then this is fraud.

As far as wether used is safer than new, well, I think we've all dusted the PLC/relay/contactor and used it where needed. I'm not implying that used equipment is less safe than new equipment. I personally have installed used equipment that ranges from an 8 pin relay to a 1200A switchgear, and most of that equipment is still functioning.I wasn't even commenting on the safety aspect.

stasis said:

This isn't being a tattle-tale, it's possibly saving someones life.

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That comment gave me the impression you were talking about safety as it relates to used PLC equipment..

Fraud?? Maybe, but what's that going to get you? In a practical sence, the machine is probably going to be uneffected by it, and pursuing a fraud issue wont help with the profit end of busniess.

While I dont disagree there may be an ethical issue here, I'm just not sure it's worth the disruption of a creating a legal issue of it..yet. In writing, I would just let the OEM know that I know, and demand immideate stock of replacement components for any "previously owned" components in the panel or on the machine. In the future demand full disclosure through a sworn statement.

Ebay & PLCs

People are always trying to save money. A good OEM will point out that savings can be had if the PLC and I/O are bought second hand or through Other sourses. Here, many of our PLC2 to PLC5 upgrades would not have been made at new PLC5 costs. We sold them to management on a Return on Investment plan. We had issues with the PLC2s and Downtime is costly. The cost savings was not enough to pay for new processors. Anything bought on Ebay, even "new, sealed box" is not new and if represented as such I would have a problem with. Unused, does not equal new. IMHO anyway.

I have seen a lot of new PLC cards and CPU's bought from eBay in the factory sealed cartons. Judging from the price paid, and what else some of these sellers had listed, a lot were probably "Lunch Box" parts, meaning, a lot of places don't do a lunch bucket check when you leave the plant. A lot of pilot devices and circuit breakers out there too!

I heard of an East Coast PLC reconditioner buying most everything off eBay, a little 409, and "Good As New"!

regards.....kc