OT. Motor voltage spikes

I am not sure of what to make of these guys who are saying they can cut our electric bill by 10%, by adding some equipment that will use some MOV’s and stuff to short voltage spikes to ground, causing the motors to run cooler, thus saving power. They said you need to wait about 72 hours after the equipment was installed to see a difference. They say they have meters that show voltage spikes every time a motor hits a load. I can see a current rise but not a voltage spike. If there was a brief voltage spike it would be averaged out so fast I just think it would take a mad scientist to actually measure the heat.



Our power bill is around $25 grand a month, so the incentives are great if this would work. Detroit Edison told me we are at the point now where some capacitors to raise the voltage would improve the power factor and have a two year payback. Other than that I am just not believing that some guys can devise some power saving miracle in the back yard.



Their site www.powergleaner.com .

Thanks
Mark

Power savings can occur by using Power Factor Correction Caps on motors over 5hp. Its on most of our customer specs to use them.

http://www.myronzucker.com/

I asked them if they were talking about power factor improvements and they said no. They are saying the motors will run cooler without being subjected to voltage spikes. Somehow these guys made it into the owner’s office, I don’t trust them, and I don’t know exactly why.



Will what they call “clamping” the voltage to a motor make it run more efficiently?

I got the same thing from a different company..They called it a "Magic Box"..The maintinace manager of a company i work for tossed them out of his office when they said that!!..To me i would ask for a demonstration..It cant hurt anything and if they can prove what they are saying then why not try it? If they wont give you a "Live" demo then i would tell them to go to hell..

I smell a little whiff of snake oil here.

It is true that non-linear loads like VFDs and switching power supplies can put a lot of harmonics and spikes into a power line. It is also true that these transients can induce heating in motors and transformers. It is also true that hotter motors are not as efficient.

But - Daddy always told me if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

For one thing, I've always observed voltage dips when a motor hits a load, not spikes. For another, I suspect the spikes that may exist are a result of factors like VFDs and UPS systems, not the motors. If they can't give you a good analysis of precisely how their magic box works, either they don't understant it (warning bells) or it is smoke and mirrors. Their white papers are only available to distributors from the web - I'd insist on seeing all of them.

I would also insist on either a demonstration or else a shared savings program. In the demo you need to pick the process and equipment, and you need to have them provide electric company quality power measuring equipment to monitor the savings so you can calculate the bill. You also need to be able to determine the relationship between process loads and power use, so they can't claim benefit from savings that are actually the result of load or production changes.

In a shared savings program they install the equipment, and they are compensated with 50% or so of the verified savings. After two years, or an agreed total shared savings amount, you own the equipment. That way the risk is theirs. The methodology for calculating the savings is part of the contract.

I would also insist on a list of reference facilities that you can check to verify performance and satisfaction.

You also need to see their actual guarantee - it looks a little fishy to me. Make sure their gurantee defines if they "write you a check" if they miss any of the three criteria or only if they miss all three. The wording is a little ambiguous.

You also need to find out your company's criteria for payback on capital investments. Some industries won't look at anything that has more than a one year payback, for example.

Power factor correction capacitors are a different thing entirely. A motor has a power factor less than one, with voltage leading current. A capacitor has current leading voltage, so the combination reduces the amount of total current the power company has to supply. Since transmission losses are I²R, a lower power factor means more transmission losses for the power company, so they penalize large users for power factors below a minimum value, typically 85%. This is proven technology and should be implemented first if you get billed for low power factor. (Oh, and make sure their stuff is compatible with capacitors.)

Hmmm! Looked at their website and I really doubt it. But, Tom's suggestion is the best. Let them do a properly instrumented test and we'll see.

I'd be really interested to hear from anyone having witnessed such a test and the results of it.

I've never heard of TVSS systems as being able to save on the utility bill. The savings that I have heard of are on motor, electronics, etc replacements due to power spikes or transients. They claim that the TVSS systems will "clamp" the voltage to an acceptable level and disipate the rest. One of the bigger name companies that carry these products is Eaton's Innovative Technologies. http://www.itvss.com/ The local utility company regularly holds conferences which inevitably turns into an Innovative Technologies sales pitch. I've never tried any of the products but one of our machine manufacturers claims that in order for their machine warranty to be valid, we need to install TVSS protection on its circuit to protect delicate electronics (everyone claims delicate electronics).

Dale

I went to a "information seminar" put on by ITVSS, Of course it was a sales pitch but good information..They never realy mentiond cost savings for power however they pushed the hell out of cost savings due to replacement cost..saying there product would make all sorts of things last longer..from computer equiptment to flouresent lamp life..

These guys are about the most expensive TVSS systems i have seen however a high tech firm up here swears by them and installs there TVSS units on all there panel boards..

The other things they are into is a transformer with reduced losses..if you look at the comarsion charges it does save you quite a bit of cash..(I have never seen this in action..just read there "Glossy"..so i dont know how accurate the claims are)..As i said before..if they can prove it works then why not..it would be an iteresting test to witness..

D

IMO, money would be better spent on power factor correction capacitors.
That will generate larger savings and real savings.

Here is an idea. You give me 10% of your yearly power bill and I will give you some boxes filled with "electronics". Then after 2 years if you haven't saved any money on your power bill I will give you a complete 100% refund.

The benefit? I have had the use of your money for 2 years at 0% interest, and my product doesn't have to do a thing.

Tom Jenkins said:

I smell a little whiff of snake oil here.

Click to expand...

Is that what I smelled???

It takes 72 hours before it will show any results...to give them enough time to get to your bank and cash the check!

So, all the stuph that I have loaded with MOV's over the year should have caused MAJOR power reductions.

We put MOV;s on the power and phone lines of public safety equipment like you wouldn't believe. The power company should have been sending us a check.


Then there was the the Antenna Matching Balun Insulator. A perfect 50 ohm match, no mater what the antenna was. Funny what a 50 ohm resistor will do for a poor match. I wonder if it the same guys...

regards.....kc

Such a Deal

Let me see......$3000.00 for a box of MOVs.... Oh yea, they are special MOVs....
Hey I got a real deal for you... I will sell you a bag of real northern pine sawdust. It has healing powers and absorbes negative energy. Just take the bag and put a handfull in each room of your house. Imagine the smell of freshly cut wood filling your house and cleaning it of all that negative energy. Each bag lasts for 30 days. Send just $20.00 dollars to me at 2580 hammond ave. Prince George BC V2M1A5. Soon you will be happy and free of negative energy! ..............Non North Americian customers please add $100.00 shipping....................

my my my..we are all a bunch of sceptics arnt we!!! i am sure other pioneers faced the same obsticals.."A computer that can sit on your desk and perform millions of calcualtions per second...Impossible..."...Is it???

While i agree it sounds a little far fetched..i would give them the chance to prove themselves..if they cant produce then kick them out and spread the info for all to see..but someone, somewhere, someday WILL come up with something that will do this...

d

Sales

These people are not Pioneers... They sell something available on the market today in a box and grossly exagerate the benefits. The old offshore scam comes to mind as a more accurate comparision...

Note i just said that i agree it sounds a little fishy!!!..However you or i have not seen the product..its a little presumtious for us to say all they are doing is packing a couple of MOV's and overselling them..

I am with you i think these people are perfect patners for the Smoke and Mirrors group..(Remember i am in charge of growth for that company..lets look into buying them out!!!)..however perhaps the origional poster can pass on this thread to the people who are trying to sell and hear from the horses mouth...They might want to tell them before hand that the have quite a selling job to do..

D