Red Lion Data Station + A-B Ultra3000?

Hi folks,

I have a project coming up which is going to require about 10 servo axes. I have worked with servos on many occasions but only 1- or 2-axis systems with fixed motion profiles. I don't need any coordinated motion between the axes but I do need the ability for the operator to input custom position values for each axis.

I have used the Allen-Bradley Ultra3000 drives before with very good success and would like to stick with them if at all possible. I know that a ControlLogix system would be beneficial for this but I'm planning to stick with an SLC for various reasons that I don't want to describe here.

Given those parameters, my tentative plan is to get an Ultra3000 indexing drive for each axis and do one of the following to handle the changing position values:
1. Get the DeviceNet version of the drives and all the necessary support (RSNetworx, 1770-KFD, etc.).
2. Communicate to the drives over a serial connection using the documented host commands. Supposedly these drives can be put on a RS485 network with each unit having a unique address.

We don't have any DeviceNet in our facility as of yet, so I'm hesitant to go that route and buy all the supporting hardware/software unless it's necessary. But I've also heard that trying to handle all the Ultra3000 serial commands in the ladder logic can be very complicated.

I discovered that Red Lion recently added a Ultra3000 driver to their Data Station and G3 operator interface panels (http://www.redlion.net/Products/HumanMachineInterface/DataStationPlus/DataStationPlus.html). We are already using some Red Lion panels and have their programming software, so if the driver works as advertised then it's exactly what I'm looking for.

Does anyone have any experience with this combination? Or any other suggestions on how to handle communications between 10 axes? Thanks for your help!

-John

IF you are going to do it using serial communications between the PLC and drives then I "think" you will have to use ASCII, this is the Ultra3000 command reference manual for serial comm; http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/rm/2098-rm003_-en-p.pdf

I am sure it would cost more BUT I think if you used Devicenet you would prefer it. It can simplify the programming part a good bit but that is me because I am not strong in ASCII usage.

With that said I wanted to keep this thread high because the Red Lion, I think President, appears on this forum from time to time so wanted to see if he would offer beneficial info on your project.

So hang around and check your thread regularly.

kolyur said:

Does anyone have any experience with this combination? Or any other suggestions on how to handle communications between 10 axes? Thanks for your help!

-John

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Whilst i cant help you out, i can totally recommend Red Lions Customer Service support on email should you have any problems.

rsdoran said:

With that said I wanted to keep this thread high because the Red Lion, I think President, appears on this forum from time to time so wanted to see if he would offer beneficial info on your project.

So hang around and check your thread regularly.

Click to expand...

He Does, pointed me in the right direction a few times - MikeGranby

Also there tech support chap is also here on the forums and he has come through many times for me in the last few weeks - DanYost

You can lead a horse to water....

Several years ago I did an example of a DeviceNet to Ultra 3000i command/status and parameter manipulation system for a customer who was making the same design decision as you are. Because I was told time was of the essence, I stayed up all night getting the system working and had a fast, reliable, and easily expandable system running by dawn.

The customer turned down my efforts, pointing out that using DeviceNet would cost them more for the drives and for the PLC interface. The outlay would have been about $1600 additional for the machine, which was itself only about an $80,000 item.

They chose instead to implement the Ultra 3000i host command protocol on their Windows CE-based operator interface panel.

This summer it will have been three years since I did that sample code. The customer's engineering department has worked out most of the bugs in their host protocol implementation, and have sold exactly two of their machines.

It's entirely possible that Red Lion's implementation is bulletproof and easy to use. But I can guarantee and prove that the DeviceNet option is fast, reliable, and established.

I can recommend the Red Lion HMI.

It works very well with our motion controllers. We are going to have a Red Lion G308 at the NPE show as the interface to our RMC75. What we find special is the ability to load our graphical data over Ethernet very quickly and display the graphics. The data can be read in one big block instead of reading one location and making a trend. The trend technique doesn't work for motion controllers with one millisecond scans.

Ethernet is the way to go. I am in the field now but I can write more later.

John,

I have talked with several customers in the past who have used G3s with the Ultra 3000. I am not sure how many of them were connecting to more than one unit, but if you would run into any problems along the way, I will be more than glad to help get them resolved.

Although you mention not needing to cordinate the motion, it should be quite easy to share data between the units with the Data Station if the need arises.

Regards,

kolyur said:

Hi folks,

I have used the Allen-Bradley Ultra3000 drives before with very good success and would like to stick with them if at all possible. I know that a ControlLogix system would be beneficial for this but I'm planning to stick with an SLC for various reasons that I don't want to describe here.

-John

Click to expand...

To me, attempting to re-invent the wheel with ASCII communication does not make sense, nor is it easy to troubleshoot in the field.

Sure, buying 10 Ultra stand alone units will be cheap. (As opposed to buying 10 Ultra 3000 SERCO's units.
If you are an OEM, you are surely thinking the future, and LG5K is the way to go, if you are utilizing AB products.
You can monitor everything, and programming is a breeze.
I would really reconsider your approach.

Thanks for everyone's replies. I was leaning towards the serial connection for data transfer (using some kind of buffer like the Red Lion) but DeviceNet seems to be the most recommended solution at this point. I'll have to think about this some more.

Peter, if you have a chance can you post your experiences with the Ultra3000 for motion control? (We would have an ethernet connection between the G3 and SLC.)

Thanks,
John

Let the SLC send motion command to the Ultra3k via Devicenet and the RedLion manipulate parameters in the SLC's data table. A lot less work. Besides, I think you'll find you may not be able to multi-drop to the multiple Ultras even though on the surface, reading between the lines, you should be able to. I asked the local RA tech guys about it and they said multi-drop really doesn't work but didn't offer anymore explaination then that. Anyways, its something you'll want to verify before you get too deep in design.

I'm working on a similar project, 5/04 with (7) Ultra3Ki via devicenet but a PV instead. yeah, ControlLogix is my first choice but the customer can't support it (politically or technically) so we're going with the SLC. I commisioned another job a couple of months ago with a 5/04 but only (2) Ultra3Ki via DeviceNet at GM Willow Run and its working without a glitch so far.

PS: depending on how you configure the input and output assembly objects, you'll need between one/two and five DNET scanner cards for ten drives.

I asked the local RA tech guys about it and they said multi-drop really doesn't work but didn't offer anymore explaination then that.

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I'm a little concerned about this statement. Why would they add this feature--and document it in the manual--if it doesn't work? The Red Lion device would simply be handling the ASCII parsing and it will still depend on the multi-drop capability to communicate with multiple drives.

Initially, I'm intending to buy the necessary components to operate just one axis, in order to verify that everything works. Perhaps I should buy the DeviceNet version of the first drive even if I'm planning to go serial (it's only a few hundred dollars more). Then, DN could be a fallback if the Red Lion + Ultra3000 strategy doesn't pan out.

Host Protocol absolutely does work, fast and reliably. The best Host Protocol driver is the one embedded in Ultraware.

What is sketchy, in my experience, is the implementation of the Host Protocol in third party devices. It's not difficult, or technically challenging, but the implementations I have seen often overlook important details. My unfavorite customer who did this, for example, absolutely refused to run an isolated common wire for the RS485 multidrop, no matter how many times I told them it was necessary. Because the system *sometimes* worked when they tied the common to chassis ground.

Also another note about the DeviceNet implementation is that the Series C FRN10 firmware in the SLC-500 controllers includes a new, easy-to-use DeviceNet Explicit Message (DEM) instruction. In years past it was very difficult to do Explicit Messaging in the SLC platform, and it's almost as easy now as in ControlLogix.

Ken Roach said:

Also another note about the DeviceNet implementation is that the Series C FRN10 firmware in the SLC-500 controllers includes a new, easy-to-use DeviceNet Explicit Message (DEM) instruction.

Click to expand...

Ken

Is there a tech note documenting the new DEM Instruction ?

Thanks in advance

kolyur said:

H
I have used the Allen-Bradley Ultra3000 drives before with very good success and would like to stick with them if at all possible.
-John

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If you do fancy a change from AB Ultra3000 then you could try out the SSD range of servo drives, they also support direct comms to the G3, In fact SSD offer the G3 as a rebadged TSI under there own name so would probably sell you a job lot and help with the communications into the bargain (or at least they would here in the UK!).