Contractor info.... Any input appreciated

Hey All,

First, let me say that this is a great database of information. I have read through all the posts and amazed at the politeness, courteous and very intelligent answers/discussions I have seen. Keep up the great work and believe me, learned a thing or two on the way to this post ;-).

I have a question that is going to fall a bit from the normal post and would sincerely appreciate any input that you all may have.

First, a bit about myself, I have been an industrial technician for about 14 years. I have a knack for computers and electrical, and kinda 'fell' into plc programming. Most of my experience is with AB setups, AI, rs logix, slc, some panelmate, etc... But most has been from a troubleshooting aspect. Running diagnostics with a plc is a great tool to help with mechanical/electrical malfunctions, but the programming always intrigued me. Some of my coworkers would pick on me, since I would watch the leds on a plc, like the screensaver from the matrix, and 'pick out' the problem, without the schematic. (okay, probably more info then you needed...)

To continue, I have worked with plc contractors in the past, and recently, been offered a possible position with a programmer for a general machine builder. I have diagnosed this person's programs on site, to save him some travel time and believe I made an impression. Mostly, due to him allowing me to call him and discuss the issue, then following his instructions to the letter. Plus, I think he found an 'ally' in this scenario, since most people love to blame the program in my field, and I do have an idea on how rough it can be to think of every possible scenario. Plus, I have extensive knowledge in mechanical problems. An example: 'that cylinder isn't firing, the program must be corrupt!' "Did you remove an air line to check for blow by on the cylinder or valve?" 'Uh, no....' "Let's start there, the program worked fine yesterday..." Does this sound a bit familiar?

Anywho, due to recent events, I have been laid off due to my position being eliminated with my current company and have been fortunate enough to have a relative pay for a class with Allen Bradley. I am going to sign up for the Intermediate course in programming on Monday and start taking the class on Tuesday.

Okay, now that I bored you with details, and if you made it this far, thank you for your patience. My question is this... Should I try and land a job as a programmer with a machine builder, or should I contract, given my limited knowledge? I would like to contract, but no idea on how much to ask for contracts, pay, travel time, etc... and that does leave me a bit leery. Yes, I do doubt my abilities. I seem to do 'better then the average bear', but I do not classify myself in the realm with a lot of you fine people. In a nutshell, I'm mainly a grease monkey trying to climb the tree for the better bananas. Any input and experiences that you would be willing to share would be greatly helpful.

Hoot

Should I or not?

Hoot, you are like me in a sense. I once wondered if it would be more lucrative for me to work for myself, or continue in the check of the month club. Well, I got my question answered and here is what you might consider.
First, being a contractor involves being in business for yourself and all the pleasure, and pain that entails. If you are working you get paid, maybe, if you are not working your definitely don't get paid. Contractors have to put up with all the business stuff that any company does. Finding clients, writing proposals or quoting against others in the field. Doing the work, and while you are working, no one is looking up new business for you when you finish your current job. Billing, cause the check is always in the mail don't ya know.
The other thing I heard from a wise businessman was that if you are going to be in business for yourself, you should have enough money to live on for the first six months to a year without making any profit from your business. That takes careful planning.

Second, working for someone in a programming or other profession has many benefits you are currently aware of. The panel shop job would give you the possibility of learning new things in the plc field as well as making a living on the skills you currently posses. Not a bad way to live. I have done it most of my life.

So, you have to decide what you would be best at and go with it until you see something better and have taken the time to consider all the pros and cons of the decision.

Opinions are like a lot of things though, everyone has one and not all of em smell too good. Good luck and hope this helps your deliberations.

Randy has thrown in a thing about opinions, that is all anyone can offer to this question.

I do not believe you are prepared to do contract work or go into business for yourself, yes it does require 6 months to a years salary if not more to start a business. Dont forget the fact that in the US you have to get an EIN number, state, county and city permits/licenses to get the tax number, insurance, bonded or bond money ( I have paid over $100 a month for bonding). In the best scenario with contract work you do the work, return home, send them a bill and in 20-30 days you may get a check. Companies these day are working more on a 60 day process, which could mean 90 days to get a check. That doesnt include the times they "forget" to pay. If you travel you have to make the arrangements and pay all the expenses up front, motels, airlines, rental cars etc.

Even if you do start a business and are fairly successful it doesnt take but one bad job to lose your capital, thats that 1 year or more money that you always have to have.

Others may state things a little differently but it comes down to being prepared, from you statements you are not prepared to start a business. Take the job and do your homework on starting a business (doing contract work is starting a business), most major cities have seminars etc that explains what is needed to start a business. Any major bookstore will have "Getting Started in Business" kits with forms etc.

I have always had a "business" per se even when I worked for others but you have to be careful in that area in case their may be a conflict of interest issue.

Its ultimately your choice, this was just my opinion.

I would say to anyone that wants to work for themselves - go for it!
You will never know if you dont.

One cautionary word; Troubleshooting an already written program is a mile from writing and designing it yourself. Especially if you are pricing for the job.

Most of a good program is never seen. What I mean by that is, an experienced programmer knows about most of the things that can go wrong with a machine and he writes routines in the program to cover this.
These things are overlooked by the troubleshooter.

When you have written a program for a machine, your name is all over it. Everything it does was done by you. If it chops someones hand off, it is down to you.

it is a big step to totally design a system from scratch and know it is good and right.

I do it for a living and I designed relay logic systems before plc systems and I am still wary when trying out a new design for the first time.

I would consider the job. It would give you a chance to pick a lot of brains and give you the design experience you need. After some time, go on your own.

Thank You

Whoa, great info, to all of you guys. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I see from the responses, that I may have misrepresented the question a bit... Completely my fault. I'm a fairly good typer, so this may get a little wordy. I apologize in advance.

I should start by saying that I have written quite a few programs from scratch. Mostly, it's when the companies don't want to pay some contractor the extra money, which really does make me mad. I'm from the Milwaukee area, and I'll be blunt, in the maintenance field here, it's about $15/hour for a decent position. A couple of places I've worked for would pay someone approximately $80/hour for field service on their plc's. Once they find out what I know about them, I am 'urged' to write some programs, and the company feels they got a great deal... This is kind of what happened with my last job. To rant, they had a tuition reimbursement program, I signed up for the class with Allen Bradley and they gave me the 'it's not enough of your job to justify the $1500 price tag...' But I was good enough to write programs from scratch, and their field rep was travelling quite a distance to work on the machines. In all honesty, it turned out where about 75% of my job was working with plc's. The company before that, saved them over $100,000 in updating machines vs. quotes they were given, but come review time, got a $.17/hour raise. This seems to be the norm more then the extreme circumstance...

Sooo, I signed up for the class, paying for it myself, more or less. They were kinda shocked when I said no PO for the class, cash. I have been seriously thinking of either getting a job with plc emphasis (had 3 leads...), work for a contractor that I met along the way (which I think is probably the best decision) or just starting off on my own. After reading your posts, I do feel for you guys and gals. I do not wish to be the 'back stabber' in the shop that takes food out of your mouths... But I'm hoping some of you would see how companies can be pretty pushy on this subject... It's not an envious position for either party, just for the company saving a few pennies. Some of you had posted the billing cycle, and that does scare the daylights outta me. Family to support, can't buy groceries on a promise.

I guess, more then anything, would like to know how you all feel on this subject. Should I just knuckle under and work for the company, grin and bear it? Should I work for the contractor/machine builder, is it worth the extra headache and travel financially? Or, go whole hog into being the own boss, but sweat every payment for service? Plus, as one person mentioned, the sweating the details. Believe you me, I have seen what you mean. One example, someone had started a project before I got into it, and put a .9 amp (max) starter on a 10 amp motor... They started the machine up, 'why is there flames outta that contactor???' Yikes! It scares me that a company is willing to do this to save a few bucks...

Sorry for the rant, but thank you for being patient and your responses. It is definitely food for thought. Keep up the great work!

Hoot

Sounds like you want to go on you own, but want someone else to tell you it is ok. Being your own boss means making decisions and living with the results. They may make you rich, or I may be able to get something cheap at the auction. Either way, if that is what you want, you will be able to say that you tried.

LOL...

Well, Rick, I think you summed it up in a nutshell... As a caveat, I would LOVE to go on my own, but you guys talk a pretty good game. That idear has been thrown pretty much to the wayside. I can pretty much 'feel' that the rewards are not really worth the risk, or, I'm not quite in a position to take on such risks. I am not disappointed, but actually, a bit elated that the people here are kind enough to offer honest opinions. You all may have saved a person from making a major mistake... I am sincerely indebted to you.

If I may be so bold, is the majority of what I see in here working for contractors/machine builders, or basic 'grunts' like myself? Have picked up on a few of you... and, more then anything, would like to see some honest opinions about how you all feel the field should be progressing. I am only seeing it from one angle, and to be honest, not really pleased how it's progressing from my little corner of the world...

Hoot

Backgrounds a plenty!

Hoot, I think you will find a large cross section of Americana here as well as our colleagues from abroad. As for me, I spent 20 years as a project engineer in various industries. Got into PLCs on almost the ground floor and have been fascinated with them ever since. The last 7 years, I have been teaching Industrial Electronics and controls at a community college here in NC. For a second career, I love this one even better than my first.

Randy, thank you so much for your response.

I would love to be in your position! Sounds like life is rosy, and congrats, first round is on me .

After your response, that does lead me to another thought process, maybe I'm just too impatient for my own good. Gotta cut my teeth a bit before I can run with the big dogs. I do not have an engineering degree and that is a very limiting factor on my part, which I understand. I am pretty much like you, as you have stated, start from the bottom and claw my way to the top (just a monkey climbing the tree for the better bananas). I'm just hoping that someone could lead me down the right path and all of you are helping me tremendously.

As of right now, the thought is to go to the class, see what I am getting into with some 'real' training. Then, contact the contractor I know of, see what he has to offer. Thinking that it's more of an area of coverage (physically) since he seems to be worked pretty hard. I believe my best option at this point is to get the job in the factory, pay the bills, then work part time to get something else going. I'm just a bit concerned on that area, given the greed of companies, and taking work away from someone else. Hence, why the contractor is looking a bit more lucrative.

For the record, yes, I have been told I have a problem with authority... does it show?

Hoot

i understand that the us is different to europe but what i found when i had my business is that the actual problem on the machine whatever it maybe is not the hardest part.there is a big difference in being
a technician and running a business.in my expierience the most important part is the business side.being more or less clever at fixing machines comes with instinct and expierience.if you run the business well it gives you time to gain this expierience.another thing
is that its best to dedicate yourself to one type of field.i was 8 years here in spain with my own business,grafic arts machines,
newspaper,commercial printing,finishing machinery etc.but what i have found recently is that more machinery is being fabricated that for
an outside contractor to repair it if he doesnt have the correct equipment its a real headache.the local newspaper where i live made me an offer i couldnt refuse so i decided to close the business.
another thing thats really important is you age.i was 20 years
running around the world/spain.missed my kids growing up.thats another thing that you have to take into account.

Hoot, I'll throw my 2 cents in here. When I became self employed twenty years ago, it was a bad time. My wife, god bless her was 8-1/2 months pregnant, and she said "go for it". I could have made a lot more money over the years working for someone else, but I have done things I could have never accomplished without being on my own and I have satisfactions that money can't buy.

So, picture what you want to be doing in five years. Do you want to be on your own, a big fish in a small pond, living with the resuolts of your own mistakes, paying your dues, sweating a few mortgage payments, master of your own destiny, spending zero time in meetings, telling your wife next month will be better, finding out about government paperwork, deciding which projects are worthwhile, looking at the business and knowing you did it yourself, wondering if you should tell your biggest customer to take a hike, learning things just because you wanted to, having the prestige of being an entrepeneur, watching your wife pay the groceries a few months of the year, taking off time in the middle of the day when your kids have a school program, telling your kids you can't make the big game because you have work, setting your own priorities, .........

The message is: self employment or running a business is a mixed bag. It isn't for everyone, and you had beter make sure your family is on board for you. Only you can decide what is best for you and your family. If you want to go it alone, set that as a goal and work toward it. If you aren't ready now, but want to do it, then set up a plan, start out moonlighting, and build to the day you can put the dotted line on your neck and take the plunge. I don't regret my decision!

If you're going to run your own business, you'll have to be willing and able to wear a lot of different hats. You'll find that you won't be able to spend anywhere near as much time as you'd like doing the thinks you really love to do. In addition to being the chief engineer and troubleshooter, you'll be the sales manager, the accountant (both accounts receivable and accounts payable), the HR person, the receptionist, the janitor, and the person who does the tasks that don't fit into anybody else's job description.

All of the points that the other people have posted are equally valid. The only person who can tell you if it's right for you is the guy that stares back at you from the mirror. It's not necessarily a question of your educational level. People with less education than you, have both succeeded and failed at running a business. So have people with more education than you. The problem with authority may be a bigger hurdle. Sure, it's tough dealing with an irrational boss, but when you run your own business, every client is another boss, and clients can be just as irrational as the pointy-haired SOB that calls the shots now.

From my own personal experience, when the opportunity came up to get into business for myself, I found it tough to let go of the regular paycheck. But one day I realized that if I didn't take the chance, from then until the day I retired, I'd be saying "what if". That realization was what made up my mind, and I've never looked back.

Hoot
To be self employeed it's a very nice thing i love it very much but as any thing in the life have it's advantages and disadvantage
I will not added much more to what have been posted here but i will
Highlight a very important point which is the
'Mangerial skills " which is very important.you have to know how to get the job,How is the Pricing ?,Who is your compatitors? when you offer a discount and how much.?......etc
Belive me if you have a good technical experiance,background and skills this doesn't mean that we have the same mangerial skills.
If we are working for a company we always Said that "we who did this project not the company owner however we get paid a little comparing to the project profit and he take the rest"
The question we should ask to our selves is "How he get the project"
I wish to you the best of luck

hoot
i wish to tell you another thing that to do a good buisness and gain a good profit you can't do every thing your self (sales,technicalities,pricing ,installinos, programming, money coolecting ...etc
you will not do any thing in the perfect way.alawys you will find something missing.
like the british example said that (jake of all trades is master of none)
good luck