Multiple Servo/PLC Application

We are starting a new project to integrate motion [up to 40 axes], PLC logic and HMI on a common platform/operating system. What experience good or bad does anyone have with the following suppliers.

Beckhoff, B & R Automation, G & L Motion, Yaskawa and Bosch Rexroth?

Simplicity of software.
Support.
Reliability.

etc. etc.

I have used most of the products you have listed. I think it depends on the application to determine which ones to use. Thats a lot of axis for one machine. When I see that many axis I think of several machines grouped together in some type of cell. Each cell doing part of the work. Or I think of one big machine where each axis is just moving to a position based on a recipe. Each axis replacing a mechanical adjustment therefor making for a fast setup but not realy doing a machine cycle on a part to part basis.

Are the axis all doing their own thing or are they grouped together? Will there be gearing between axis?

All axes are geared to a virtual master with the capability of dynamically changing the phase of each axes in relation to the master.
I am not so concerned about the motion application, rather the overall ease of implementing both motion and ladder logic on the same platform.
For example:-
Is the motion part of the application readily accessible/programmable within ladder logic or must it be applied in a separate programming environment and referenced from the ladder?

Since we are not doing complex motion I am looking for the most flexible and simple programming package to get up and running fast. Do not want a steep learning curve where other engineers and service personnel have to be completely re-trained.

1) The motion may be simple, but I know that the logistics of getting 40 axes up on a network and run reliably, may be tougher than advertised. It is good to get real references or see with your own eyes.
I am not aware of Yaskawa nor G&L having 40 axis single controller solutions. Possibly they are new.
I know that you can technically do 40 axes with Beckhoff, B & R Automation, and Bosch Rexroth.

2) Programming motion in PLC: G&L, Beckhoff, B&R, and Bosch Rexroth, all support PLCopen function blocks, implemented with IEC 61131, so the programming of motion/PLC "should" be similar. i.e. You can trigger motion directly from PLC. As far as ladder logic support the only one of the above I have not seen is B&R, but I would be surprised if it was not possible. I have heard that the Yaskawa software is confusing to get motion up in the PLC, because it was all about defining fixed memory areas.

3) Support of drives/controls:
Beckhoff - Does not make their own drive, I believe they brand label Danaher. Though you could use a 3rd party drive.
B & R Automation - They have a very small presence in the US.
G & L Motion - Danaher distributors are everywhere. Don't know how well they support the G&L part though.
Yaskawa - Support and distributors over the whole US.
Bosch Rexroth - Support and distributors over the whole US.

What PLC are you using now? What exactly is the application? Phasing is a problem. What is the virtual master? An encoder reference or another axis?

There are always tradeoffs. If you do all your programming in the PLC then there will be delays getting these commands to the PLC. How tightly must the axes be synchronized?

I notice that you don't have Rockwell on your list.

Have alresy selected the aformentioned manufacturers based on their solution for gearing with high axis counts.
What I am trying to determine is the ease of use/implementation/integration of their software packages for contol logic [PLC Ladder]and motion commands.

Have you looked at OMRON's CX-ONE? www.cx-one.com

It is designed to be single source for PLC, HMI and MOTION CONTOL.

Peter Nachtwey said:

What PLC are you using now? What exactly is the application? Phasing is a problem. What is the virtual master? An encoder reference or another axis?

There are always tradeoffs. If you do all your programming in the PLC then there will be delays getting these commands to the PLC. How tightly must the axes be synchronized?

I notice that you don't have Rockwell on your list.

Click to expand...

That would be my biggest concern. How fast does my PLC need to react and can I get the signal to the right drive fast enough.

Makes me nervous just thinking about 40 servos on one controler.

Anyway we use a Bechoff PC Twin Cat software with Rexroth Drives thru a fiber optic loop. 10 drives total. I find it to be very user friendly for someone who has not worked with PC based software much. I like the speed also. Found one little delay that I could not rid myself of and the Rexroth rep told me basically it was due to me not using a Rexroth PC. Not sure if this could be a problem for you but I would ask about it.

Note on Danaher, they should all be lined up and shot for what they did to the Pac Sci line. Support and parts is now a joke for anything with a Pac Sci label. I sure do miss Pac Sci

That would also be another thing to consider. If your planning on this machine to be around a few years check out how these guys support their older stuff. One day it maybe you looking for replacement parts and information.


That and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee.

Have you looked at Siemens Simotion, Check out the P350.

I can vouch for Yaskawa: 40 axis off a single controller - no problem at all; it can do up to 256 axes as a matter of fact. BTW, you won't find any information about this PLC (MP2200) on Yaskawa web site - they do have strange marketing habits. Just call and ask for a demo, they'll be happy to oblige. Their trademark "pencil-lead" application is sure to impress (6 axis in sychronous motion keep a thin and fragile pencil lead intact).

There are several ways to program motion: from pure ladder logic (set registers so and so to values so and so) to IEC-like motion blocks to text-based motion programs which run apart from ladder. Fully functional online editing is supported; the only nuisance is the need to save everything to flash when done (it can be done without stopping the controller though).

Average scan time is usually between 2 and 5 ms; it depends on how much code one puts into the high-priority task. Communications between the controller and the servo drives can be done at either 1 ms or 2 ms scan time; the difference is how many communications modules to put into the PLC rack (for 1 ms scan there could be no more than 8 servos on the network drop; for 2 ms - up to 20). Networking hardware is a snap - literally: the cables look very much like USB cables, no need to cut and terminate - just plug'em in.

The software... well, how should I put it? It is very Japanese: powerful yet not quite intuitive. The learning curve may be steep, but then it just grows on you. Yes, it is all address-based, no symbol programming; each axis does use a fixed memory area and all addressing is actually in hex. If you used to work with symbolic programming, this is not for faint-hearted.

The latest release of Pro-face touchscreens (GP3000 series) now finally supports Yaskawa communications via Ethernet, so your bases regarding HMI would be covered. There is also a KEPware driver available, if you prefer to go that way.

BTW, we now use Yaskawa I/O in the PLC rack just for few time-critical inputs; everything elese works just fine off Beckhoff Devicenet I/O - Yaskawa has a Devicenet master module and 5 to 7 ms scan times are fast enough for us. It actually makes a pretty nice match (Yaskawa has network I/O modules that work on the same bus as the servos, but they are only 64in/64 outs - not flexible enough...) They also have a Profibus module, but can only be a slave. Ethernet is available but not for real-time I/O operations (although Modbus TCP/IP is supported - great for Cognex cameras if you use those).

The support has always been good, although their manuals may sometimes be hard to read (Jenglish, you know). Unfortunately, ther PLC guru in their Illinois US headquarters just left home for Japan upon having completed his US stint; I don't know yet how good is the new guy is.
This is a serious controller for serious, short of true CNC, business - it is being used by Fuji chip placers, for example (if you ever seen one, you know what is involved).

u should go for siemens

An integrated development environment has always been the last selling point I look at. Use the tools that perform your task the best. Granted, if you are just doing electronic lineshafting and a couple of discrete moves you can go with just about anyone. If you can get the performance you require AND get an integrated development environment, that would be great. But trying to shoehorn an application into a controller just to get integrated development seems kind of counterproductive.

Keith

Strongly recommend you consider Bosch Rexroth

This is an interesting question. While many of the posts so far have keyed in on some of your concerns, I think it is important to go back to your original question and cover those key points.

Simplicity of software – You have a 40 axes system that will use a virtual master and require phase offset of several axes. This sounds like a web handling application such as printing or converting. For simplicity, I would suggest that you give the Bosch Rexroth Synax operating system a serious look. They have reduced web handling operations into functions that work seamlessly together to build your application. It is a lot easier to use motion code that you know works out of the box, rather than chasing both your motion and your logic code when things don’t work right away.

Support - While all of the suppliers on your list have either an established or at the least growing presence in the states, Bosch Rexroth has been here the longest, and has a solid network of technical support people around the country.

Reliability - I think it is safe to say that everyone on your list will have failures of hardware every now and then, but as it is with most major suppliers today, MTBF is higher than it has ever been in the industry. The key point in your evaluation should be the ease of getting parts both during the warranty and down the road.

My past experience has been that Bosch Rexroth has the best balance of leading edge technology, strong application support, and good service and spare parts. They have a strong track record of handling large axes count coordinated systems, and will give you the best chance of success in your application.

As Ladderlogic said - Yaskawa's MP range is sure to please. Plus, dangle them off Mechatrolink2 (motion bus) so the wiring effort is dramatically reducedPp

Support

Just as Phil said in his current Personal PLC tutor email, think about the non-technical stuff first. Even LadderLogic tells you that not only is the system he recommends not on their web site, but also that the guy in Chicago who really knows the stuff is back in Japan.
No one who does a lot of motion would consider 256 axes of coordinated motion a realistic control system. Think long and hard about your application, and what the hardest part of the project will be.
If motion is your main concern, pick a great motion company who also does logic. If logic is your main concer, pick a great logic company who is now doing motion.