I've been thinking of something Terry wrote about complexity of logic.

Sliver

Member
Join Date
Feb 2004
Location
Kingston, Ontario
Posts
488
I've been running into an interesting dilemma.
A production engineer comes to my boss and tells him he wants this PLC controlled machine to do something completely new, to achieve this production/quality goal.
My boss tells me the score and I go through the process of determining what I am being asked to do and what is actually needed.
In this case these are very different and the engineer is not understanding my points so after much debate my boss says, "Never mind if it will do what he needs, make it do what he wants."
Whenever I take on a major logic rewrite I want to clean things up, make wholesale changes if required, add new features that will improve ease of use by operators and maintenance.
I tend to lean towards Terry's idea of KISS. Put as much thought and complexity into the program to make the process work as smoothly as possible. If a fault occurs display the fault as specifically and clearly as possible. Finally make the program as structured and documented as practical to allow the next guy (and myself in 5 years) to understand the intent of the logic.

Now my stumbling block is that some of the operators who dispise change of any kind, are giving me a hard time because the HMI has changed to match the new improved features.

Does anyone else have this experience and what can a union electrician like me do to help influence the powers that be on one hand and deal with the least understanding operators on the other? (Being a somewhat technically oriented person a contributing factor may be a certain lack of tact when dealing with closeminded people.)

Brian.
 
Last edited:
Terry..... KISS....... :oops: .... DUCK!


I find you have to talk to the operators and get them on your side, let them make some suggestions etc so they own part of the change. Supprising how easily they can turn to the dark side.
 
PeterW is right on the mark. You can't just drop a new set of HMI screens with a new look and feel on the operators and expect them to embrace it wholeheartedly. Approach them ahead of time and explain that the boss has asked you to implement some changes in the process. Solicit their input on how the new data can be presented so as to seamlessly blend with what they're already used to.

In a previous life working for an OEM, we would spend hours in meetings with customers reviewing what should be included on the operator's control desk. Then when I arrived at the customer's plant for commissioning the machine the operators would invariably ask "What the hell is that for?" about some of the features we'd spent so much time discussing. The people responsible for purchasing the machine don't necessarily have the same needs and priorities as the people who have to make the machine run.
 
You should have a standard that you abide by. If so, then the look and feel shouldn't change much, and operators should be comfortable with the change.

Lacking standards, then if nothing else, you should solicit the operators, explain the change request made by engineering, then get their input.
 
You can please some of the people all of the time.

You can please all of the people some of the time.

You can NOT please all of the people all of the time.

No matter what you do, when you are implementing change some body will not like it and find fault with it.

Find the one person everybody knows is the biggest whiner and get the whiners input. That way they will whine a bit less and everybody else can laugh at them whining about getting exactly what they whined they wanted.
 
it is very common with operators. without hurting anybody discuss the operations requirements, operators likes and dislikes, the job is done several times by me. Afterall Most of the operators want the way HMI detailing done. very few go into how the automation task is wriiten.

bye good luck
 
I find you have to talk to the operators and get them on your side, let them make some suggestions etc so they own part of the change. -Peter

You know I tried to squeeze this backlogged job in between other work and no I didn't feel I gave the operators, especially night shift enough notice or input. Good observation.

The people responsible for purchasing the machine don't necessarily have the same needs and priorities as the people who have to make the machine run. - Steve

You got that right, I don't even believe that the new function will do want they need to achieve their goal. Although I did manage to program in a few benifits to the rest of us. By the way this machine is 35 years old and the original purchasers would be amazed by what it can do now. It was originally GE static (relay) logic.

You should have a standard that you abide by. If so, then the look and feel shouldn't change much, and operators should be comfortable with the change. - Oakley

The only standards we have are the ones we (usually I) try to initiate. Maybe we can write some standards here. It'll be just as easy for us to agree at PLCS.net as it will be in my department. You are right, just where to find the time.

Find the one person everybody knows is the biggest whiner and get the whiners input. That way they will whine a bit less and everybody else can laugh at them whining about getting exactly what they whined they wanted. -Leadfoot

Interesting, but not sure I want to spend that much time and effort on a whiner. I have found that if you can put up with the way a message is delivered (such as whining) you can often find a real gem of information in there. At least it is feedback.

Afterall Most of the operators want the way HMI detailing done. very few go into how the automation task is wriiten. - VRAM

You got that right too. I just start talking timers and counters and you can see the glazed look come over their eyes. Then mention you are changing the red alarm to a flashing red alarm and whoa...

Thanks for all the feedback, good stuff all.

Brian.
 
Some years ago when I first started doing this kind of work.I was involved in two very similar projects, the biggest difference between them was the way that their managment introduced the new (plc/scada) systems to the employess.

Plant A were told that management were installing the new system to keep track of the lazy b***ers on night shift, the system would make sure that everyone works as hard as they should. Operators had no input in design process

Plant B were told that plc/scada system was being installed to assist operators to run their plant more effectively. Oeprators were involved in screen design etc.

Plant A never worked properly and was a nightmare !

Plant B ended up being a showcase where my company regularily tokk prospective clients to showcase our work.

It was a vluable lesson for me. Talk to the operators get them involved they are the ones that ulimately have to work with your project 24/7
 
Sliver...

Once you understand what Corporate really needs, you should ALWAYS get the production folks on your side!

Production folks can be your BEST friends (supporters), or your WORST enemies (detractors).

Anyone that might have wasted time following my posts over the years would know that I have ALWAYS been promoting the following order of satisfaction...

1 Corporate
2 Production
3 Maintenance
4 Programmer

The programmer, as it should be, always sucks hind-tit!

CORPORATE

The name of the game is production! Get to know your process well enough that you can determine what is really needed to provide what Corporate REALLY needs. And find a way to make it happen with the equipment that you have.

Once in a while you'll get a request from "on-high" to do such-n-such. They will, undoubtedly, provide ideas on how to make it so. Consider the content of the request, very carefully, in light of what you KNOW to be corporate's REAL needs.

Now, this is a judgement call, but...
Bear in mind... there is often a huge difference between what Corporate REALLY needs and what someone from on-high says that Corporate needs.

More often than not, the request, and the suggested ideas, are short-sighted in terms of the possibilities. In fact, the "ideas" might actually be counter-productive.

BUT... you can NOT make that judgement unless you REALLY KNOW your Process!

In general, as you really get to know your process, you will discover the potentials in that process, as they are, with the existing equipment. At the same time, you will find the "walls" and the "bottlenecks". When you understand the "walls" and the "bottlenecks", you then have information to argue a reasonable justification for the purchase of new equipment to break through those walls and bottlenecks.

BUT... be damned sure that the cost of the new equipment can be repaid in short order!

If you are really up to speed on your process, then you should be ahead of the curve! You should know what they need BEFORE they indicate that need.

PRODUCTION

As I said, you should ALWAYS have the Production folks on your side. You NEED them on your side! If they are on your side, Corporate will tend to let you do whatever you feel that you need to do! (Give Corporate what they need before they know that they need it!)

Always discuss the "suggestions", "requests", in terms of your understanding of the potential of the process... not simply in terms of whether, or not, the idea can be accomplished.

DAMNED NEAR ANY IDEA CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED!

The question is... Is the idea reasonable in terms of the potential?

Once you hear a "request", possibly with ideas on how to make it happen, consider the "request" in terms of the process as you understand it (while busting your a$$ to understand your process completely).

If you come up with an idea of your own, one that satisfies the REAL INTENT of the request, then consider, very carefully, if your idea produces a net benefit for the production folks. If it does, then you have to SELL the idea to those folks.

Be ready to provide all of the reasons why your idea is a good one! Be prepared to argue "logically" against the nay-sayers.

The general idea is to present to those folks something that they didn't even realize that they needed! One that, after using it once or twice, they can only wonder how in the hell did they get along without it!

You can do this... ONLY if you REALLY understand your process and it's potential.

MAINTENANCE

All of the above applies to providing those needs for the Maintenance Folks. Don't forget to include those things that you, the programmer (in that respect, you are Maintenance too), need to have available for monitoring status and fixing problems.

PROGRAMMER

As I said... you (we) suck hind-tit! In order to make things appear easier for others, someone has to put in a lot of effort. That "someone" is you (me)!

FINALLY...

You absolutely MUST keep the Production Folks, and the Maintenance Folks, abreast of changes when they occur.

It's NOT enough to simply tell them that a change is coming or that a change has happened. You have to provide a document of some kind to explain what the change is AND how they can use or handle that change!

Whenever I make a change, I publish a "TECH-FLASH" to describe the reason for the change, including a description of the potential benefit of the change, what to expect from the change, and how to use, and handle it.

I have always consider myself to be more of a "Production Mother" and "Maintenance Mother" rather than a Management puke.

If my "kids" look and act good, then I look good!
If my "kids" look and act great, then I look great!

Does any of this make any sense?
 
consys - you are right and even though technically my time is scheduled for me for the most part, I need to make/request/steal more time the next time I make such sweeping changes. Time to consult with the operators and provide a 'memo' as stated by Terry. This time I basically scribbled notes on paper and taped them to the side of the HMI.

Yes Terry in this case you make perfect sense. Especially if you have the resources to plot your own course to some extent. Mine are limited.

Like I said I guess I have to start working more on my political/personal skills instead of just relying on my product.

I have never been a salesman and have always thought that good ideas sell themselves, but obviously thats not enough.

Thanks for the help,

Brian.
 

Similar Topics

Logix AOP install problem: "Either every version on this media has been installed..." Hello. I have tracked the cause of my problem in my...
Replies
4
Views
2,531
The Tesla thread got me wondering, what has been your wisest stock investment move? Maybe you got in early or sold at just the right time. Your...
Replies
5
Views
1,624
Good Morning , This is what I get when I started a project 5 months ago , and then get back to it , with a new 1769-L33ER, into my existing ME...
Replies
2
Views
1,869
I have written one program with FDB. Thought I could therefor write code for an automation direct DL-06. Huge learning curve. I believe I have...
Replies
3
Views
1,735
Hello, I have a new Powerflex drive to set up and would like to use Connected Components Workbench. I've logged in to their website...
Replies
2
Views
1,536
Back
Top Bottom