SLC vs ControLogix on Motion application

shanimi

Member
Join Date
Mar 2004
Posts
14
Hi,

I am about to start a CNC 5 Axes retrofit
with 5 Analog drives and incremental encoders
I have some very basic questions:

1. What are the benefits of using motion modules
(1756-M02AE) vs High-speed-counter and an Analog output?
2. What are the benefits of using CLX compared to SLC (in motion)?
3. The Drives are 20 years old, should I consider replacing them as well?
4. Are there any benefits in moving to absolute encoders?
 
Last edited:
Hi,

I am about to start a CNC 5 Axes retrofit
with 5 Analog drives and incremental encoders
I have some very basic questions:

1.What are the benefits of using motion modules (1756-M02AE) vs High-speed-counter and an Analog output?

There are many. The main thing is that you must re-invent the wheel if you use a high speed counter and analog output card. This 'wheel' consists of a motion profile generator, error handling, diagnostics, limits switches, the PID, feedfowards, anti-windup and much more.

The SLC is slow compared to the DSP on the M02AE ( encoder ) or M02AS ( absolute SSI )

The SLC is not deterministic. Neither is the Control Logix but the motion cards are. The motion cards can be set up to have a loop time of 250 microseconds if necessary. It usually isn't but at least the cards will always update at time you specify. You can't say that for a PLC. PLC interrupts are not that deterministic. There is a lot of jitter because interrupts must be turned off during many instructions or rungs. The interrupts in the motion controller are off for only a few DSP instructions at most which is a small fraction of a microsecond. The motion conroller also uses a FPGA to get the position feedback and latch it at the beginning of the scan instead of relying on software to read the positions at uncertain periods.

The Control Logix has motion blocks that make programming easier that writing the motion commands processor in ladder. The motion control blocks are documented.

The Control Logix and its motion cards use 32 bit floating point DSPs.

Something to think about. How fast are the analog outputs of PLC cards? By fast I mean what is their time constant? The analog output of motion controllers is usually very fast so the output will reach the desired value in one scan.

I am not sure that Rockwell even has a counter card that works properly for a motion control application. I keep hearing about reseting counters at the roll over when the counter cards should NEVER be reset, except for some cases during homing .

Do the PLCs even have a PID suitable for motion control? PIDs with Ti and Td in minutes is not good. A motion controller should be able to handle systems with time constants in the millisecond range not minutes. The control logix has many PIDs. Do you know which PID is best for motion control?

2.What are the benefits of using CLX compared to SLC (in motion)?

It depends on how much of the motion control is done in the PLC. Some motion controllers can connect directly to either a CLX or SLC5/05 over Ethernet and then the PLC does little but store parameters and handle some errors. In this case the PLC makes little difference. If all the motion control is done in ladder in the PLC then I would want all the power I can get.

3.The Drives are 20 years old, should I consider replacing them as well?

Can't say. Not enough info.

4.Are there any benefits in moving to absolute encoders?

Yes, you don't have to home the axes since the motion controller will always be able to read the absolute position. This can save time. It can also be safer. It is also possible to start where you left off if the power goes out but this takes some programming to determine the current state on start up. Sometimes the PLCs retentive memory makes this easy IF no one has moved anything while the power was off.

I read a lot of posts about doing motion control in the PLC ladder instead of using motion controllers. I just shake my head and wonder when people will stop abusing themselves.
 
shanimi said:
Hi,

I am about to start a CNC 5 Axes retrofit
with 5 Analog drives and incremental encoders
I have some very basic questions:

1. What are the benefits of using motion modules
(1756-M02AE) vs High-speed-counter and an Analog output?
2. What are the benefits of using CLX compared to SLC (in motion)?
3. The Drives are 20 years old, should I consider replacing them as well?
4. Are there any benefits in moving to absolute encoders?

I'm curious, you say you are starting a CNC retrofit. Will you still need the flexibility that the CNC controller provides via the G-code programming? If so, a PLC would not be a good choice to replace the CNC controller.
 
Answering JRW's question about the CLX

JRW said:
Also does AB CLX support circular interpolation?
Not directly. The AB CLX's main way of doing tricky motion profiles is to use cam tables. One would need to calculate the X and Y motion profiles as a function of time or a master position. This motion profile can be calculated in the PLC using ST, compute blocks, or downloaded from an external source like a PC. These camming tables can then be executed at the same time for the x and y axis. The CLX has large amouts of memory where one can store many or big cam tables.
 
jstolaruk said:
I'm curious, you say you are starting a CNC retrofit. Will you still need the flexibility that the CNC controller provides via the G-code programming? If so, a PLC would not be a good choice to replace the CNC controller.

I would concur; as a matter of fact, this seems to be the most important factor to consider.

Some modern PLCs, including CLX (I would rule SLC completely out from the beginning) are capable of running pretty advanced and demanding motion tasks. However, I am not aware of any PLC that is capable of running G-Code, at least directly.

If the machine in question has to be able to use the existing library of parts programs, written in G-Code, your only choice is a new CNC controller, not PLC. Or, if you have a lot of time and money on your hands, someone would have to write a custom PC program which would convert a G-Code proram into some format understood by a PLC.
 
Some answers and more questions

Thank you for your answers!

Some answers for the questions you raised:
1. I don't need the full flexability of G-code, I will use simple steps with limited axes control.
2. The only interpolation is linear with two axes.


I have one more question
The original machine is using 5 axes, each with a servo motor controlled by an analog drive connected to a CNC controller.
The motion is monitored through an encoder that is connected to the CNC controller.
It also has a Tach connected on the motor wired to the CNC and to the Drive.
What is the tach used for in the drive?
What is the tach used for in the CNC? (controller is an AB 8200)
Why does the CNC needs two feedbacks?
 
shanimi said:
Thank you for your answers!
It also has a Tach connected on the motor wired to the CNC and to the Drive.
What is the tach used for in the drive?
What is the tach used for in the CNC? (controller is an AB 8200)
Why does the CNC needs two feedbacks?

Encoder is for position feedback, tachometer is for velocity feedback. Old analogue servo systems needed both. Modern digital drives and motion controllers derive the velocity from the encoder.
 
I've been down this retrofit road before on those old Allen Bradley drives and CNC controllers. They are somewhat unique and you may find your choices of equipment available that works with them somewhat limiting (depending on what is to be replaced). That being said, the ControlLogix platform with the SERCOS interface to Ultra3K drives is a nice A-B solution; ladder logic motion commands are a nice feature.
 

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