If its good enough for NASA (HMI)

I have recently run into an HMI ... more SCADA ... that has been programmed using the Tycoon-2 language.

I have memories of this language but always thought that it was used in deterministic high end system like in nuclear plant.

Its something like Java.

As anyone ever heard of this used in SCADA systems.

Understandably it can be downloaded freely then students would like to use it. But having a real system run with this is something else.

I advised the End-user to make sure he has backup of source code ... not just executables.

Anyway, have you guys ever seen this in a PC runnig a process?

The person I talked with only found out what the programmer was using after the system had been implemented and running, so he had no choice then. I was told, If its good enough for NASA it can't be that bad or that rare.

Now if the doodoo its the fan, who will be able to debug this?

I've been doing this type of work for over 15 years and I have never seen it. I would ghost the whole hard drive for a backup that way you got a whole other drive to put in, in case that one crashes.

He has backups but are they gost images? I'll suggest that for it makes a lot of sense.

That way he's got a complete back up. Just my $0.02

I can not find any good link on google about tycoon-2, must be a very rare software.

http://www.oiltycoon.com/

It's official, the computers have taken over. Only the government would be able to take an innocent game and turn it into an HMI package that WILL eventually take over the world (start with oil, that's where the money is).

Singapore_Mats said:

I can not find any good link on google about tycoon-2, must be a very rare software.

Click to expand...

Tycoon is base on the polymorphism of classes and deploys with octogonal persistence.(Much moore but these are for me the biggest ones)

Poly...blabla is a concept where the TYPE is independant of the Function. For example, you cannot append an Integer to a list of Real but if the append function was polymorphic you could.

Octogonal Persistence is simpler, thinck of you Palm Os. Type "Someting" in the memo area, stop, turn Off your device... Turn it back ON. The "Something" is still there ...

I imagine where many can already see some good use for this type of software concept.

Here is a link.

TYped Communicating Objects in Open eNvironments 2

One result of this concept is directly involving "online-edit" for persistence deal perfectly with having to regenerate or not, a piece of code, in our case in the PLC.

Many PLC, when editing online, will "write" the code to some area, flag the area to be replaced, and within a scan will switch OFF the old code and ON the new one. Parsing your memory area everytime you do this.

Persistent systems or network of systems uses Garbage Collector (GC) for in theory there will never be "rebooting".

So when from the start you work on a concept of persistence, you deal with GC, it not being a solution to cleanup the mess but a vital function linked to anything that was created from the start.

Our PCs would have been much better if they where built from the start with this concept in mind.

No they say, purchase bigger HD, more memory, more CDs, and when it fails ALT-CTRL-DEL

I'm by farr not an expert but am fascinated by this type of concept.

maybe NASA have time/budget to build their own wonderware in this language, but I dont.

Singapore_Mats said:

maybe NASA have time/budget to build their own wonderware in this language, but I dont.

Click to expand...

I could not find any info on this nor any other uses of this software BUT it was used for a very simple system by a fresh-out-of-university kinda gual.

This is why I ask.

I was told, its open source, its free, they used it, it works, woila!.

I thought WTF?

Pierre said:

Octogonal Persistence

Click to expand...

Something was bothering me here... until I realized that it is "orthogonal".

My apologies, Pierre, but somehow I could not make myself to imagine persistence with eight corners. Or six. Or five. Or whatever.

Granted, I am still to contemplate on what "persistence with a right angle" could possibly mean. But for some reason this concept doesn't bug me as much.

I haven't heard of it in my 35 years in controls and 19 in PLC's.

But that isn't neccessarily a good indicator.

If Tom or Steve or Bob or Eric or a couple of the others haven't heard of it, then.....

If it is good enough for NASA?

Aren't those the guys that strap you onto a huge flamethrower, built by the low bidder with the cheapest material cost and aim you to heaven to make the journey shorter???

The only thing obscure or one-off systems are good for is ensuring the long-term employment of the developer or maintainer. Once they have a sucker or two, they have retirement in the bag.

Some things I have personally observed as indicators you have gone the wrong direction:

- the "HELP" page is a 1-800 number. Or just a phone number.
- when you call tech support, he's out feeding the goats.
- 90% of the proprietary code is commented out.
- the company you purchased from rents a room from an enclosure manufacturer.
- you recognize the equipment, but it has Bubba's labels on it.
- your "new" hardware makes the obsolete list a few months after purchase.
- the company you purchase from is excited, because they can finally test their product.
- after installation, the software guys from the vendor are calling you to see if you have job openings.

I swear. Even the one about the goats.

Rule #1 of spec'ing a system - MAKE IT MAINTAINABLE! So what if letting the customer know what he has, and how to work with it means less work for you - your reputation for working with the customer spreads around, thus (hopefully) more work in the long run.

Originally posted by tomalbright:

I swear. Even the one about the goats.

Click to expand...

Now that made me laugh. But, then again, I wasn't the poor guy making the phone call that received that response. Talk about getting that nasty feeling of dread.

Keith

It's true - a metering system we bought was installed by a man and his son, the programmer. Sonny moved to Arkansas to be a farmer during the installation. Dad built all the interface boards in his garage. This thing used some obscure OS, the name escapes me.

When we had enough of that, we made sure the specs were a little more "standard". PLCs, PCs, etc. The low bidder used an enclosure manufacturer's address for his company site, bought the enclosure from them, and worked completely on-site at our location. His IRS troubles caused him to close up shop a little early... One man show.

Oh, and we were oversight on this, the customer was the govt., I'm sure it's all clear now.

Tycoon has been around a while: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/projects/Tycoon2/entry.html

There are numerous things that are not "off the shelf" per se, that is where I (read Bubba) or guys like me come in. We may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer but usually can fulfill a need when needed but later on a large company usually takes the idea and expands upon it, so we are left feeding our goats, sheep, cows, horses, chickens etc. I personally do not have any of those now but if I had the land I would. You know the feeling you get when you make a machine work EXACTLY like it should? Whether its a crop or animals, when its all said and done, you can get that same kind of feeling when it works right.