Bubbler method to measure solution height in tanks

manmeetvirdi

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Oct 2004
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(This is not a PLC related problem)

Its about measuring the height of the solutions in tanks through diffrential pressure(DP)Transmitter.

Now problem is I have only seen the DP mounted at the base of the tanks to measure the height of the solution in the tank (open or close) and knows the theory behind it.

But now Iam confronted with a setup where Bubbler type method is being used to measure the height of the liquid in tank.In this setup the air is passed to the Dip tube immersed inside the tank as well as to the transmitter.So the corrosive liquid does not comes in contact with the transmitter in this method.

Now in this method is it necesary to calibrate the Transmitter, or its simple enough to match the liquid height inside the tank with that of transmitter by adjusting the air flow through rotameters?

Also how to calibrate the transmitters(if required) to measure the interphase level.(By interphase level I mean, that there are two liquids inside the tank of diffrent densities, so I want to measure the the boundry of these two liquids)
This thread came close, but I did not got my answere:http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=27951&highlight=bubbler+level

Actually the guy who knows about all this is out of country and I am bit fixed up.
Hope Iam clear on my explanation;-)
Tanks in advance
Manmeet
 
Last edited:
Bubblers are a common level measurement technique in applications where the liquid is corrosive or dirty and would foul a conventional pressure transmitter. They are just as accurate as any other pressure measurement device.

The rotameter is only necessary to verify flow is occurring into the dip tube. Flow rate has little or no impact on the pressure reading, so long as the flow is low enough that friction in the dip tube is negligible, as is typically the case.

The pressure transmitter will measure the pressure at the end of the dip tube, and consequently the height of liquid above the dip tube.

I don't think you will be able to measure the interface between two liquids with a bubbler.
 
manmeetvirdi,

In order to measure the boundry layer between the two liquids you will need to tie one of the bubblers to a float that will float at the boundry layer between the two fluids.
 
Tom Jenkins said:
Bubblers are a common level measurement technique in applications where the liquid is corrosive or dirty and would foul a conventional pressure transmitter. They are just as accurate as any other pressure measurement device.

The rotameter is only necessary to verify flow is occurring into the dip tube. Flow rate has little or no impact on the pressure reading, so long as the flow is low enough that friction in the dip tube is negligible, as is typically the case.

The pressure transmitter will measure the pressure at the end of the dip tube, and consequently the height of liquid above the dip tube.

I don't think you will be able to measure the interface between two liquids with a bubbler.

Dip tube levels are pretty finicky about how they are set up so I would like to clarify a couple of things here:

The flow to both tubes needs to be identical so that the back pressures on both sides of the transmitter with no level are the same.
The only difference in back pressure needs to be the head of the liquid in the tank. This needs to be calculated and that will then be the span of the DP cell.
The tip of the tube also needs to be V-notched to give good, consistant bubble quality and prevent it 'belching' and disturbing the reading.
If theres an agitator in there or the liquid is a solvent you may have trouble with the dip tube bending (if its plastic) or not being perfectly vertical. This will also give you a false reading.
 
I'm not sure why you would use a differential pressure transmitter - a standard guage transmitter will give the height of the liquid. I'm also not sure why you would have more than one dip tube and rotameter per tank. If you have multiple tanks and multiple tubes all you need to do is insure flow to each. If one dip tube has twice the flow as another, how will this affect the level reading?
 
Sealed tank.

If the tank has 2 psi above the liquid level you will get head+2psi on the transmitter. Fine as long as that pressure doesnt change. A DP cell with the low side piped to the void at the top of the tank will compensate for any changes in the void pressure and as such will provide a much more accurate reading. If your trying to measure level in an open tank then why not just use a radar or ultrasonic?

Bubble tubes are generally used in sealed tanks, at least in my experience.
 
1) The air regulator used is not an ordinary regulator, it is a differential regulator that regulates for fixed flow at a varying pressure. The use of a standard pressure regulator will not work on a bubbler.

2) The measurement of the back pressure (same as the liquid head pressure) in the bubbler tube can be a gauge pressure measurement with respect to atmosphere, or a DP measurement in a closed tank with a vapor blanket or pressure blanket, where the blanket pressure has to be subtracted out.

Even on open sumps or tanks a differential pressure transmitter is commonly used because the span range of a DP transmitter is typically lower than the span range of a gauge pressure transmitter (a DP transmitter reads gauge pressure when its low side is left open to the atmosphere).

There are deep wells with bubblers that use gauge pressure transmitter because the pressure developed at high water depths can be read effectively with higher ranged gauge pressure transmitters.

3) The transmitter should be spanned to something close to the liquid height for the best system accuracy. The range can be higher, particularly if the range is oddball; for instance a 71" level might be represented on a 0-100" range, because the 0-100" is a round number.

4) Bubblers are now viewed as maintenance headaches, usually related to the sticking of the regulator due to dirty or wet supply air that has fouled the internals of the regulator, or packed with frozen ice. By the time one has purchased an industrial grade pressure transmitter and differential regulator, most people will look at that amount of money and consider an alternative level technology that doesn't require a constant supply of clean, dry gas.

5) The advice on the V notch on the bubbler tube is on target.

SLC integrator:
>"If theres an agitator in there or the liquid is a solvent you may have trouble with the dip tube bending (if its plastic) or not being perfectly vertical. This will also give you a false reading."

Why does a bending tube introduce error?

The backpressure in the tube = the head pressure against which a bubble can forced out. Why should a bent tube, in which the pressure is constant throughout (minus negligible pressure loss at a bubbler's low flow rate) create an error due to length?

6) Interphase level is a challenging measurement.

Continuous capacitance level has been used for some years with varying success.

Time Domain Reflectometry (TDR), known in the vernacular as Radar on a Rope, where the radar signal runs down a cable, has some application in interphase measurement.

Magnetorestrictive measurement uses a float on a rod, and with a properly designed float that will float on the heavier, denser material, but not on the lighter phase, a measurement can be attempted, within the constraints of whether a float - self cleaning liquids that will not hang the float up, and with the instruments temperature and pressure limitations.

Any float technology (bypass gauges, a tube on the side of the tank with a float that trips visual flags) could be used to determine the denser level, with a second technology measuring the lighter level, and a subtraction done to determine the interphase level

I'm very curious about the comment to tie a float to a bubbler tube. I've never seen that, but can see that a flexible tube tied to a float that positions the tube at the interface could read the interface level. Anyone know how well that works? Sizing the float - enough bouyancy to float on the denser liquid plus the weight of the tubing, which is not always a constant . . .


Dan
 
Thanks Tom,SLC,

Actually I do not know about ABC of this method, and also do not know about its principle of operation !!
Person who has designed this system is un-available.And Iam just not getting the readings in my SCADA as per the true height of the solutions in tanks. I have doubts in calibration of the transmitters.

What I thought is since air flow from rotameter is in parallel to DP(HP side, its LP side is open to air)and Dip tube,
then pressure of the solution in the tank (say 2000mmWC,this I calculate by multiplying the actual height and density of the solution) must be matched with the reading of the transmitter by adjusting the flow from rotameters.Afterall its Only air coming in touch with DP, then how come density of the solution is required to calibrate it.(So what iam thinking does not match with Tom Jenkins, more confusion)

Height of the tank is 4500mm and density of the solution is 1.19, so the calibration span becomes
1.19*4500=5355. So URV of DP is 5355, and LRV is 0.Is is OK? In bubbler system?

For measuring the interphase DP has been callibrated in the following way
Density1=0.08,Density2=1.12,height diffrence between dip tube 500mm.
URV(Upper range value)=1.12*500=560mmWC
LRV(lower range value)=0.8*500=400mmWC
In this case both LP and HP side of DP is connected to two diffrent rotameters.



Tom Jenkins said:
The pressure transmitter will measure the pressure at the end of the dip tube, and consequently the height of liquid above the dip tube.
I cant viualize how.Do you mean that if liquid hight increses then air between the dip tube and DP will get even more compressed, hence the increase in reading of the DP?
If this is the case then why we need rotameter at all?There will always be air inside the dip tube, right?

I don't think you will be able to measure the interface between two liquids with a bubbler.
Am i chasing the ghost??

If you have multiple tanks and multiple tubes all you need to do is insure flow to each. If one dip tube has twice the flow as another, how will this affect the level reading.
Ya I have multiple tanks all of them having there own rotameters, and interphase tanks having two rotameters each!!I dont know.

If your trying to measure level in an open tank then why not just use a radar or ultrasonic?
All the tanks are open tank!!Ultrasonic is good one,I liked it.
 
We have used bubblers in both open and closed tanks. One thing you need to be aware of is if the tank is > atmosphere or simply higher than the instruments and you loose your bubbler air supply that could be a real problem. For years our instrument guys had problems with an HF acid (nasty stuff) tank that was using air pressure to push the acid to the process. If the instrument supply stops the acid would come back into the tank farm instruments and destroy them. Someone then tried ultrasonic about the time I came into the department. I found that the air would fume inside the tank and make the ultrasonic fault. I replaced it with a radar unit and it worked flawless.
Since you mentioned liquids with two densities I would look into radar. Some of the newest units may be able to work with both liquids to give you two levels. Or use 2 radar units with different dielectric constants set to match the desired liquids. One pulse would pass through the lighter liquid to measure the heavy liquid. If the interface is distinct it should work fine, but if there is a rag layer or mix of the liquids at the interface the lower level will not be as accurate but could be OK. Check with an Endress +Hauser or similar rep for more information. There have been some new designs that look to solve some nagging problems. We have eliminated most of our bubblers with other technologies.
 
Dan's comments are right on. I just don't use differential often, but if you need low readings and have one side of the DP transmiter open to atmosphere it is in effect reading gauge pressure.

The basic principle of a bubbler is simple. In order for air to be forced out of the bottom of the dip tube the pressure of the air must be equal to the pressure of the water above the end of the tube. If the pressure is less, no air flows. The pressure won't exceed the pressure of the liquid. You need the rotameter to verify that you have flow.
 
Let's take this step by step.
manmeetvirdi said:
I have doubts in calibration of the transmitters.

What I thought is since air flow from rotameter is in parallel to DP(HP side, its LP side is open to air)and Dip tube,
then pressure of the solution in the tank (say 2000mmWC,this I calculate by multiplying the actual height and density of the solution) must be matched with the reading of the transmitter by adjusting the flow from rotameters.
Incorrect.

The flow rate adjustment is there to minimize air consumption.
The differential regulator adjusts its output to maintain a constant flow by varying the output pressure in the dip tube. The desired flow rate is a low flow of bubbles. No reason to waste clean dry air.

The pressure inside the dip tube matches the head pressure of the liquid column outside the dip tube, when there is sufficient pressure inside the dip tube to just force a bubble out of the tube.

If the pressure inside the tube is less than the liquid head pressure, the liquid will force its way into the dip tube to the point where the pressures equalize. But there will be no flow through the regulator or rotameter under this cirumstance (which is fault situation).

I guess you could adjust the flow rate way high, and see some error due to pressure drop in the tube due to an excessive flow rate of air, but that's not normal operation.

manmeetvirdi said:
Afterall, its Only air coming in touch with DP, then how come density of the solution is required to calibrate it.(So what iam thinking does not match with Tom Jenkins, more confusion).
Any head pressure measurement needs correction for density or specific gravity because the measurement units are in water column engineering units.

It is not commerically viable for the transmitter manufacturers to have a zillion look-up tables for engineering units of cm of propyl alcohol or inches of ethylene glycol or cm of whatever chemical you're dealing with. Instead, pressure units used for level use the water column standard, inches of water column or cm of w.c.

But the pressure created by a 500cm column of liquid that is not water is not the same pressure as that created by 500cm of water, because the density is not same as water. So level measurements that use head pressure in units of water column must have a density correction to compensate for the difference in density between the w.c. measurement unit and the actual density of the material.
Height of the tank is 4500mm and density of the solution is 1.19, so the calibration span becomes
1.19*4500=5355. So URV of DP is 5355, and LRV is 0.Is is OK?.
Yes, the calculation is correct.
4500 cm liquid = transmitter reading of 5355 cm of water = 20.0mA
0 cm of liquid = transmitter reading of 0 cm of water = 4.0ma
In bubbler system?
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

For measuring the interphase DP has been callibrated in the following way
Density1=0.08,Density2=1.12,height diffrence between dip tube 500mm.
URV(Upper range value)=1.12*500=560mmWC
LRV(lower range value)=0.8*500=400mmWC
In this case both LP and HP side of DP is connected to two diffrent rotameters.
Let's address interphase in a separate post in this thread.
Originally Posted by Tom Jenkins
The pressure transmitter will measure the pressure at the end of the dip tube, and consequently the height of liquid above the dip tube.
I can't viualize how. Do you mean that if liquid height increses then air between the dip tube and DP will get even more compressed, hence the increase in reading of the DP?

bubbler_with_labels_half_size.jpg


What Tom means is that the pressure at the end of the dip tube where the bubble coming out is the same as the liquid level head pressure.

When the liquid is at level A, the pressure at liquid level C in the tube is the same as the head pressure created by the liquid at level A minus C.

When the liquid is at level B, the pressure at liquid level C in the tube is the same as the head pressure created by the liquid at level B minus C.

If the pressure in the tube is equal to or just slightly higher than the head pressure of the liquid, the liquid cannot enter the tube. At a slightly higher pressure in the tube a gas bubble will come out.

When the liquid level changes, the differential pressure regulator changes its output pressure to maintain the same flow rate. That change in pressure in the tube will match the change in liquid head pressure so that the flow rate of gas remains constant.

So the pressure in the tube always matches the liquid level head pressure. The pressure transmitter senses the pressure in the tube, which is the same as the liquid level head pressure.

The air in the dip tube doesn't get compressed (increase in pressure) by the increasing liquid head pressure, the air in the dip tube increases in pressure because the regulator increases its output to maintain a constant flow against an increasing liquid head pressure.

If this is the case then why we need rotameter at all? There will always be air inside the dip tube, right?
There will always be air inside the dip tube as long as there is sufficient pressure to create flow from inside the tube to outside the tube, that is, sufficient pressure inside the tube to overcome the outside liquid head pressure. Air flow is indicated by bubbles coming out of the bottom of the tube.

A rotameter is not required. The rotameter is there as a visual confirmation that there's some flow. Without flow, the system isn't working and liquid can come back up into the dip tube when the pressure in the tube is less than the liquid head pressure.

Rotameters used for bubblers might have a needle valve so that the flow rate can be regulated with the needle valve. Some flow adjustment is required in the system, otherwise the regulator doesn't know what flow rate to maintain.

In my experience, only a low flow is required. I haven't worked on agitated vessels that use bubblers. Agitation might require a higher flow rate to work.

Am I chasing the ghost??
Ya I have multiple tanks all of them having there own rotameters, and interphase tanks having two rotameters each!! I dont know.
All the tanks are open tank!! Ultrasonic is good one,I liked it.
I'll get to the interphase in a separate post. Today is Thanksgiving Day in the USA, it's a holiday, and family is gathering. So the interphase post might be somewhat later. Dan
 
density or interface/interphase level by bubbler

For measuring the interphase DP has been callibrated in the following way Density 1= 0.08, Density 2 = 1.12, height diffrence between dip tube 500mm.
URV(Upper range value)= 1.12*500 = 560mmWC
LRV(lower range value)= 0.8*500 = 400mmWC
In this case both LP and HP side of DP is connected to two diffrent rotameters.
interphase tanks having two rotameters each
A couple things could be going on here.

The use of 2 bubblers could mean the use of a measurement technique known as HTG or Hydrostatic Tank Gauging. HTG calculates the density of the liquid using the principle that the difference in head pressure readings for a given material (not two materials) between two elevations is proportional to the density (specfic gravity) of material.

The other thing that might be done is interphase measurement using a single head pressure measurement system and some calculations to indicate the interface level, or as you call it, interphase level.

Without knowing how the system is plumbed and what calculations are being done, it's hard to say. I would appreciate feedback from your colleague when he's available as to the actual setup & performance of bubblers in your plant.

1) HTG

The graphic below shows an open tank with two dip tubes, where each tube is one one side of a DP transmitter.

hydrostatic_tank_gauge_with_bubbler_7.jpg


If the elevation difference (H) between the dip tubes is 500mm, then the specific gravity of the liquid is:

DP (mm w.c.) divided by 500 mm

If the liquid were water which has a S.G. of 1.000, the DP at H would always be 500.0 mm w.c.

For a chemical liquid with a specific gravity of 1.12, the DP would be 560 mm w.c.
Back calculating with a reading of 560 mm w.c.:
560 mm w.c. divided by 500 mm = 1.12 specific gravity for that liquid.

For a liquid less dense than water, the reading at H might be 400 mm w.c.
Back calculating with a reading of 400 mm w.c.
400 mm w.c. divided by 500 mm = 0.80 specific gravity

If the two tubes are connected to both ports of DP transmitter, then the measurement is most likely density in specific gravity. Given that you've provided the calculations for the elevation difference betweent the two tubes, it seems likely that the dual tube system is measuring density.

If the transmitter is a multivariable transmitter, one that provides
- DP
- high side AP
- temperature from a temp sensor
then other calculations are doable, usually in the control system.
With multivariables, typically a barometric pressure is either assumed or supplied from a barometric sensor, and the barometric pressure is subtracted from the high side absolute pressure value to provide a gauge pressure reading for the lowest elevation dip tube. That is then the liquid level height L (in the graphic) in water column units.

If the tank has only one material in it, then the physical liquid level can be calculated from the density and the L calculation.

2) There's another technique that calculates the interface/interphase level with a single point hydrostatic head pressure measurement. But it has RULES.

Rules for interface level by single point head pressure measurement:
1) Maximum liquid level must be held constant.
2) Densities of the two liquids must remain constant
If you break the rules the measurement is out the window.

Let's use the example you gave with your specific gravities:
liquid 1 = Density 1 = 0.80 (assuming a typing error for 0.08)
liquid 2 = Density 2 = 1.12

and a couple values for an example:
tank height = 4200 mm
constant liquid level = 4000 mm

At either extreme, the tank can be either full of liquid 1or liquid 2.
If full of liquid 1, the head pressure level would be 4000*0.80 = 3200 mm w.c.
If full of liquid 2, the head pressure level would be 4000*1.12 = 4480 mm w.c.

When there is a combination of both liquids, then each liquid will contribute a head

pressure in proportion to that liquid's level compared to the maintained constant level.

The table below shows 8 points, from zero to full scale, as an example.

density_calculation_with_single_bubbler_constant_level.jpg


Notice that the level of the heavy liquid is the interface/interphase level.

When the heavy liquid 2 is at 1000 mm, the remaing 3000 mm must be liquid 1.
The interface level is 1000 mm.

When the heavy liquid 2 is at 3000 mm, the remaing 1000 mm must be liquid 1.
The interface level is 3000 mm.

Since the rule is that constant level must be maintained, the values must range between the two extremes mentioned above.

The span between the extremes is 4480 minus 3200 = 1280 mm w.c.
This is the range of the DP readings. When the level is maintained with 2 liquids of the specified specific gravities, then the DP must range between these limits.

The ratio of the extreme span to the height of the tank is the scaling factor.

To calculate the interface level from the maintained pressure level:

maintained level minus [(max DP reading possible minus DP reading) times scaling factor ]

Example:
maintained level = 4000 mm.
max DP reading possible = 4480
DP reading = 3,520 mm
scaling factor 3.125

4000 - [(4480 - 3520) * 3.125]
4000 - [960 * 3.125]
4000 - 3000 = 1000

Interface level for a DP reading of 3520 = 1000 mm

3) If the vessel had a means of detecting actual level, then the rule 1 would not be needed.

The actual level could be substituted for maintained level, and be used in additional calculations used to re-calculate max possible DP reading, and the 'extremes span', all of which will dynamically change with a change in maintained column height level.

An example might be where a single bubbler is used to determine interface level, with a top mounted ultrasonic or radar unit to determine actual maintained level.

Dan
 
Hi Dawn
Thanks for your mindblowing explanation.
It removed the confusion inside out!




Say, if the pressure of air inside dip tube is P1 and that of liquid is P2, then
if p2>P1,liquid will go inside the dip tube.
if p1>P2, then we can expect large amount of bubbles coming out
if P1 is slightly greater then P2, then few bubbles will come out, and hence transmitter reading will be almost equal to pressure due to liquid.


So our aim is to keep P1 as close as possible to P2, and we can do so by air flow rate (rotameters)and visually inspecting the bubble size.



OK now i can make out why DP needs to be calibrated as per density of the liquid.Fine.



Again V-notch at the end of the tube is required to prevent belching.



Again a air regulator is heart of the Bubbler system, since it increases its output(hence pressure on DP varies in accordance to height of the liquid) to keep the flow constant against the fluctuating head pressure of the liquid.


Question:This air regulator and rotameter are one and same thing,isn't it?:-(




OK one last dumb question:
If you dip an inverted Mug inside the bucket filled with water then there is always some air trapped inside the Mug,right?
Now if you dip inverted mug and then release, it pops out of water,right?
Now popping out of water is proportional to the depth to which you have immersed,that is greater the depth more voilently it comes out.
So the measure of popping up is the measure of the depth to which we have immersed the mug,right?


Now in this case there is no air regulator but still popping up is measure of depth,so in bubler system in same way there will always be air trapped inside the dip tube, which can be compressed further and further if the liquid height increases.Liquid will enter the dip tube.
So if 100 molecules are occyping the empty dip tube then when liquid enters the dip tube same 100 molecules will occupy lesser place, hence increse in pressure.
Exactly what Iam missing here?Air getting dissolved with liquid?



Also I will take the print out of your interphase level explanation, and will discuss with other guys.






danw said:
I would appreciate feedback from your colleague when he's available as to the actual setup & performance of bubblers in your plant.



I will definataly do that


Dawn thanks for whole hearted explanation.
Delighted!!
 
1) I neglected to label HM and LM on the interface/interphase table.

HM = heavy material or the 1.2 SG material
LM = light material or the 0.80 SG material

2)
manmeetvirdi said:
Say, if the pressure of air inside dip tube is P1 and that of liquid is P2, then
if p2>P1,liquid will go inside the dip tube.
if p1>P2, then we can expect large amount of bubbles coming out
if P1 is slightly greater then P2, then few bubbles will come out, and hence transmitter reading will be almost equal to pressure due to liquid.


So our aim is to keep P1 as close as possible to P2, and we can do so by air flow rate (rotameters)and visually inspecting the bubble size.
Correct. The regulator will maintain the flow rate by adjustment of a flow rate valve.

Question:This air regulator and rotameter are one and same thing,isn't it?:-(
Bubblers have been around for decades. So I'm sure that there are still commercially available combination regulators/valves/rotameters or individual components that users plumb together.



If you dip an inverted Mug inside the bucket filled with water then there is always some air trapped inside the Mug,right?
Now if you dip inverted mug and then release, it pops out of water,right? Now popping out of water is proportional to the depth to which you have immersed,that is greater the depth more voilently it comes out. So the measure of popping up is the measure of the depth to which we have immersed the mug,right?
I honestly don't know.

Now in this case there is no air regulator but still popping up is measure of depth,so in bubler system in same way there will always be air trapped inside the dip tube, which can be compressed further and further if the liquid height increases.
true
Liquid will enter the dip tube. So if 100 molecules are occyping the empty dip tube then when liquid enters the dip tube same 100 molecules will occupy lesser place, hence increse in pressure.
true
Exactly what I am missing here? Air getting dissolved with liquid?
If there is no regulator supplying additional flow, then the air trapped in the tube will compress.

When there is a regulator, then the regulator senses a decrease in flow due to the increase in liquid pressure (increased pressure holds back the ability to force a bubble out), so the regulator increases its output pressure to the point where flow occurs.



Dawn thanks for whole hearted explanation. Delighted!!
You are welcome.

Dan
 

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