Freelance programmer

I have a question,

I was an electricien for 8 years in a carpet factory. The first years were more maintenance, the last years were automation. Thanks to evening school and what I have learned so far, I can now work as a project engineer in a machine building factory.

But the carpet factory asked me to work for them from a freelance base, because I know the company very well.

What am I asking myself:

- The price that I may ask them / hour
- Do I need an insurance, because, what if they have production loss because of program faults, can they blame me ?
- Is this a possible thing to do ?

Combo said:

I have a question,

I was an electricien for 8 years in a carpet factory. The first years were more maintenance, the last years were automation. Thanks to evening school and what I have learned so far, I can now work as a project engineer in a machine building factory.

But the carpet factory asked me to work for them from a freelance base, because I know the company very well.

What am I asking myself:

- The price that I may ask them / hour
- Do I need an insurance, because, what if they have production loss because of program faults, can they blame me ?
- Is this a possible thing to do ?

Click to expand...

ANSWERS (just my opinion of course)
PRICE Whatever market will bear - youre just being a good capitalist after all.

INSURANCE They can blame you all they want - that part is free - course they may not let you come back.
Now then
IF they sue (or worse yet their insurance company does)
AND you lose
THEN do you want to lose house, savings, etc etc?

POSSIBLE ??
Of course. What are you willing to put into it?
What is your family willing to put up with??

Gee just think you are working for yourself
- you only have to work a half day
AND you even get to choose which 12 hours??

Then there is the bookkeeping, IRS, billing, research time, equipment repair, travel time, and other overhead stuff (insurance, workers comp YES YOU SHOULD HAVE IT (depending on what state here in Wa best medical insurance there is
BUT it has to be job related)

I tried it sure was fun. Did not succeed. I do NOT have enough marketing savvy.

Dan Bentler

Politely decline.

Not sure what the rules etc are in Belgium. I worked contract for quite a few years in the UK.

In my case I created a Limited Company, you can also work Pay as you earn. I have found that the insurance depends on whom you work for, some agencies will have cover others (most don't), if you work for yourself direct to a company then you will not be covered unless you cover yourself.

I believe the cover you need would be Public liability, but I'm not 100% sure now. I know there are two types of cover for that type of working, one of them is very expensive and not needed.

Hi Combo,

The questions that you must ask yourself are: Do I want to do this and do I need the money? If you really don't want to do it then don't, don't do it to be a nice guy because when the problems that come with moonlighting start to show themselves you will be miserable.

However if you do want to pursue this then I have some recommendations. I moonlighted for years building diesel engines. I would tell the customers up front before I even looked at the job "THERE IS NO WARRANTY...PERIOD. IF YOU WANT A WARRANTY THEN TAKE IT TO A DEALER". Fortunately I never had any issues. One job I took was overhauling twin Detroits in a Hatteras yacht. I told him the same and added "...if a wrench comes out of the side of the block with my initials on it then THERE IS STILL NO WARRANTY". One screw up on that job could of wiped me out financially. All went well and it paid for a trip to Disney World for my family.

My point is this, side jobs can be a great source of extra income but you need agreements up front. Your customers will respect you for it. However, you cannot charge top dollar and not offer them a guarantee or warranty. Your pricing has to be good money for you and a value for them.

Here in the US you can get insured by the job. To work in a marina in a winter storage building I had to have a million dollar umbrella?? policy (I think it was called). It wasn't that expensive and covered me for that job.

Just be honest with your extra income. Here the IRS keeps you honest with 1099 forms that your customers will send you at the end of the year.

That was many years ago but working on the side was a very good source of income. Whatever you do don't make your decision based on FEAR OF A LAWSUIT.

The down side is supporting your work. That is the biggest headache. When you leave your side job and everything was running fine that evening and the next morning you are greeted with voice mails, e-mails, text messages calling for urgent help due to unforseen problems...that is the miserable part. Your hands are tied until you are off from your full-time job. This is something your side customers must understand also.

This post is much longer than I intended it to be. If you want to do it then do it.

...

What do you mean ?

L D[AR2 said:

Politely decline.

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Don't do it.

I agree with Kyle with pricing, it has to be a good deal for them and you. I'm in a similar situation with a former employer, I do some work on their machines when they need help. I charge twice as much as I was making an hour but that is still half as much as my current company bills me out at. Be careful with conflict of interests; my current employer knows that I do a little moonlighting with former employers.

As for insurance, that is a touchy subject. It depends on the size of the company. The main company that I do moonlighting with is small (under 2 million in sales/year) so they don't have the resources to sue if something goes wrong. I do a different deal if the company is a fortune 500 company because then they have the resources to sue (and besides they wouldn't let you in the door without insurance.) For some of the fortune 500 companies that I have done work for, I negotiate a contract through a staffing agency so that they have insurance and risk, not me. Most temporary staffing agencies will jump at you brining them business.

I'm not sure why anyone would tell you not to do this. I see it this way: The company is obviously comfortable with you, and you know their process; it's a good match. You already have a full time job, so it isn't like this is a "make or break" project. It looks like a nice side job where you can get your feet wet.

If you do this, go into it as though you don't expect to make a dime. Eeveryone makes mistakes, and everything always takes longer than you thought it would, and on a first project like this I would be more concerned about making the customer happy and establishing pristine references (although, a little extra spending money isn't bad either).

But this is the bottom line: Working on your own isn't for everyone. Some people just can't do it, and only you can say if you are cut out for it.

Am I to understand from the original post that you are not employed by the carpet Co in any way? Are you employed full time by the "Machine Building Company"?

If this is indeed the case, I would defineately go for it.

You have nothing to lose. It is good to see that you are looking into your liability though....
Don't cut yourself too short though. Sometimes, we think that we will just give a good deal....but in the end you might spend all of your free time doing work for free...and you might lose your family and friends in the meantime....

Just be prepared and know everything before you commit.
Good luck!

Combo-

The replies you get here are going to be based on personal experience. I suspect that L D[AR2,P#0.0] has had a bad experience with this type of thing somewhere along the line. So far I have had nothing but good experiences do this so I would recommend you do it.

However, as others have said, only you can decide what you intend to get out of this. In my case I do freelance work much like what you are looking at. It is for an organization I have a prior history with on projects in which I tend to have a good knowledge base. It works out well for both parties. I only get a call when they are strapped for help and I can help them. And I make some extra money doing it.

On the flip side I never intend for this to turn into my full-time career. In my opinion, as Kyle Grathwol alluded to, your current employer gets precedence over the people you are freelancing to. You don't want to do anything to hurt your relationship with your current enmployer so be careful of that.

As far as money goes, I tend to work a little bit on the cheap. As I said I don't do this to make a living; I do it to make extra money. As long as, in my personal estimation, the money I make compensates me for the loss of time I could use doing other things I am happy. Only you can decide what your time is worth. But as Kyle Grathwol said you probably can't provide instant service to your freelance client so that needs to be considered in the pricing.

Keith

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L D[AR2 said:

Don't do it.

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Why ?

kamenges said:

You don't want to do anything to hurt your relationship with your current enmployer so be careful of that.

Click to expand...

Just a gut feel, I have no experience of doing anything like this myself though.

Some good ideas

L D[AR2 said:

Just a gut feel, I have no experience of doing anything like this myself though.

Click to expand...

I've heard some good ideas. Like, making a lower price because I have a fulltime job. So that they have to understand that I am not availiable when I work at another company 8 hours / day.
The company has a programmer btw, but he is unable to do all the projects that they have in mind for 2008. That's why I got this question. Look I'm not really affraid, but the main thing for asking these questions is because I wanna start at my own for this company, but also for others.

I have a little list thanks too you posts, please add or scratch what's good and not good in you eyes:

- Price may not be high, because support cannot be given 24/24u.
- They may not own my soul, when a project is done, and problems. happen, then they have to contact the local programmer who has to be informed how things are worked out.
- Insurance must be okay.
- Best projects to me are non-time-critical projects or no-production-effective projects, projects that aren't dangerous for the production process. Example: I worked a whole WinCC Secheduler System out to control the temprature in the factory, this is not time or production critical.


A problem that I have in mind. What about the software..., if I buy a laptop; then I need a SIemens License, not cheap...

Combo said:

A problem that I have in mind. What about the software..., if I buy a laptop; then I need a SIemens License, not cheap...

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You have to build all of these costs into your rate. For instance, a laptop and associated "stuff" like a wireless adapter, patch cords, second battery, etc, will run about $5k. All of the Siemens software will run another $5k or so. If you plan on working 500 hours for this company during the coming year, then the cost of just walking through the door will be $20 per hour. That's a simplistic example, but definitley needs to be considered. It is no different than what a plumber or carpenter would have to do.

Also, resist the temptation to use your current employer's tools and software, even if they say they don't mind. It can only lead to problems and hard feelings down the road if you decide to leave permenantly.