SSD Drive / Web Handling Application

Our R&D department just installed a new web handling machine with several SSD Drives (890 series). I have been asked to assist in the control system, but have never used SSD hardware before. Are there are any experts who can help me:

1. We are tuning the drives with tension control as feedback and would like to use the software (download for free at SSDDrives.com) features like Chart Recorder and Oscilliscope. How do I add parameters to these so I can see what is going on?

2. I have trouble updating the file - I connect and extract, then say change some PID settings. Sometimes Install works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I use Full Install, but that doesn't always work (Drive flashes good, but the indicator light flashes red). Sometimes, it works fine. Can someone steer me in the right direction to make minor adjustments and then upload so we can test?

3. I would like to tune our rewinder. Is there an autotune, and can anyway give me a few pointers on how to tune these? I have used some of the concepts I picked up here to get the system to an acceptable state, but would like to provide a more robust solution. I have no confidence that if they change the tension setpoint or change materials that we won't have problems.

Any / all help is greatly appreciated!

billysmithde2 said:

Are there are any experts who can help me:

Click to expand...

First of all I am not an expert buy we do use SSD drives exclusively (though normally the 690+ or 590). I personally like the drives, they are very powerful and flexible once you get the hang of them. They use function block programming that you need to understand to get anywhere. Also there manuals are extremely detailed which is good, however a little daunting at first.

What software are you using and how are you connecting to the drive? You want the DSElite program. The manual for it is here.

http://www.ssddrives.com/usa/doc/HA471486.pdf

billysmithde2 said:

We are tuning the drives with tension control as feedback

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What exactly do you mean, are you using a dancer or a load cell for feedback to the drive? or are you simply running the drive in torque control with an operator manually adjusting the tension with a pot?

What control mode do you have the drive set up in (V/HZ, sensoreless vector, or closed loop vector?)

What is the WEB you are trying to wind?

Winding applications range from dirt simple, to extremely complex depending on what you are trying to do.

Yes the drive has an autotune function. There are two actually, a static and a rotational (the rotational is better if you can uncouple the motor). The manual that tells you how to do that is here:

http://www.ssddrives.com/usa/doc/HA468445U002.pdf

The guys at SSD are also very good, don't be afraid to call your vendor. If I manage to stump the guys up here they will put me directly in touch with the experts in NC, no questions asked.

I've also done several web handling projects with SSD drive. Like allscott my experience has been with the 690+ drives and DSD. The 890's use a newer version of the software that I have yet to use. However, from what I have seen in demos, the basic programming strategy and control architecture hasn't changed.

With the older DSD software, online parameter changes were often easier to do using the watch window (get/set). Once you had the parameters the way you wanted them you would do a project update to synchronize the data in the drive system with what is on the computer. If any actual drive parameter are changed, like drive velocity loop gains, you need to save these parameters to non-volatile memory on the drive.

The autotuning allscott is referring to is for the drive current loop and the vector commutation model. To the best of my knowledge there isn't a velocity loop autotune. Nor is there a tension loop autotune. Are there specific issues you are seeing that you want to correct?

Keith

billysmithde2 said:

Our R&D department just installed a new web handling machine with several SSD Drives (890 series). I have been asked to assist in the control system, but have never used SSD hardware before. Are there are any experts who can help me:

1. We are tuning the drives with tension control as feedback and would like to use the software (download for free at SSDDrives.com) features like Chart Recorder and Oscilliscope. How do I add parameters to these so I can see what is going on?

2. I have trouble updating the file - I connect and extract, then say change some PID settings. Sometimes Install works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I use Full Install, but that doesn't always work (Drive flashes good, but the indicator light flashes red). Sometimes, it works fine. Can someone steer me in the right direction to make minor adjustments and then upload so we can test?

3. I would like to tune our rewinder. Is there an autotune, and can anyway give me a few pointers on how to tune these? I have used some of the concepts I picked up here to get the system to an acceptable state, but would like to provide a more robust solution. I have no confidence that if they change the tension setpoint or change materials that we won't have problems.

Any / all help is greatly appreciated!

Click to expand...

How are the drives connected together, ie are they networked firewire? ethernet? etc or are they seperate entities.

DSELite is free from ssd drives but has some functions missing and wont link to a networked set of drives, for that you need DSE Full Although it will look at individual drives.

Have the drives got a keypad on them, the standard keypad, standard for an 890 is the small half height keypad, these IMO are rubish and i always fit a remote larger 6901 (or newer 6911 keypad) as these talk to you in english or just have one in your toolbox and plug it in !

For the oscilloscope, when you are online with the drive, right click a parameter ie motor current and select add to oscilloscope.

Or when online in oscilloscope right click on nodes, this brings up a selection of 3, see manual chapter 4-11

504bloke said:

DSELite is free from ssd drives but has some functions missing and wont link to a networked set of drives, for that you need DSE Full Although it will look at individual drives.

Click to expand...

Can you point me towards a download? I have a few of these that I have to troubleshoot occasionally. Something to view the function blocks would be great

Thanks for all the input. So here we go:

1. The drives are all standalone, and we are only having trouble with the last one. It is an 890SD15. The program file is attached. We have a 6901 keypad, but I prefer to use the USB connection and software if at all possible. I am using DSELite. I believe we are in closed loop vector mode.
2. The control is as follows:
a. actual tension is measured and is an analog input ANIN_3.
b. the tension setpoint, set by a pot, is ANIN_4.
c. these are fed into a PID loop in the SSD config, and the output of that loop is ANOUT_1, which controls a clutch. It seems that the drive spins at constant RPM and the feedback adjusts the clutch to control the shaft speed on the take-up roll. So as tension increases, we would want to slow down the take up roll, loosening the clutch and vice-versa.

As delivered, the take-up reel would take a loooong time to react. We were able to make adjustments to the PID section to make it smoother, but still get some jerkiness from time to time and early on we got a lot of oscillation. I wanted to use the chart recorder to watch some of the output parameters but couldn't add any tags to it. 504bloke suggested I be online, and maybe that is the problem - I 'extract' the config - I will try the 'Open Online' function today and see if I can then add parameters.

You guys are great - thanks for the assistance!

TWControls said:

Can you point me towards a download? I have a few of these that I have to troubleshoot occasionally. Something to view the function blocks would be great

Click to expand...

DSELite Here (You will need to be logged in from memory)

billysmithde2 said:

Thanks for all the input. So here we go:

1. The drives are all standalone, and we are only having trouble with the last one. It is an 890SD15. The program file is attached. We have a 6901 keypad, but I prefer to use the USB connection and software if at all possible. I am using DSELite. I believe we are in closed loop vector mode.
2. The control is as follows:
a. actual tension is measured and is an analog input ANIN_3.
b. the tension setpoint, set by a pot, is ANIN_4.
c. these are fed into a PID loop in the SSD config, and the output of that loop is ANOUT_1, which controls a clutch. It seems that the drive spins at constant RPM and the feedback adjusts the clutch to control the shaft speed on the take-up roll. So as tension increases, we would want to slow down the take up roll, loosening the clutch and vice-versa.

As delivered, the take-up reel would take a loooong time to react. We were able to make adjustments to the PID section to make it smoother, but still get some jerkiness from time to time and early on we got a lot of oscillation. I wanted to use the chart recorder to watch some of the output parameters but couldn't add any tags to it. 504bloke suggested I be online, and maybe that is the problem - I 'extract' the config - I will try the 'Open Online' function today and see if I can then add parameters.

You guys are great - thanks for the assistance!

Click to expand...

You definately need to be online, on the DSE Full there is a GO ONLINE Option, I cannot find that in DSELite, but as its standalone i think when you are connected then you are online anyways, i have one on my desk ill load up dselite and try it.

When you are online and right click you also get SET/GET True False options as well for toggling IO and setting Values

Just uploaded your app to an 890,

In DSELite you need to click File > OpenOnline, then go into your required blocks and right click on whatever you want to scope or toggle or set and click Set/Get Scope etc etc

I dont know about your application but did notice that the config is pretty basic, SSD specialise in Web/Tension control etc and have special bocks for it under Block > Winder.

I just did i small rewind with two drive,but i used i plc to controlle drive,One thing that you do not want to do is decrease
clutch, go up with clutch down with speed.rewind should run about 10% faster.

I fotgot to say as pointed out above you cannot tune the PID loop automatically from within the drive, the autotune feature on the drive as mentioned above is for motor characteristic tuning.

You are running in closedloop vecotr so in this mode i presume you have performed an autotune of the drive ???

If not then id suggest you perform one as a matter of priority, i would recommend a rotating autotune with the load disconnected.

kamenges said:

The 890's use a newer version of the software that I have yet to use.

With the older DSD software, online parameter changes were often easier to do using the watch window (get/set).

Click to expand...

The 890's are like a 690 but with the Link add on tech box, the DSE Software is sort of link based and just more powerful than standard 690 CED programming.

I Have never used DSD but from what you say Get/Set etc looks more like Link based.

I was able to finally use the chart recorder this afternoon which will help with tuning. We plan to run product on Monday, and I will try to autotune the motor (no load) as suggested. Then onto our actual PID loop - anyone want to offer a method of attacking this? It's probably been covered here before - PID tuning - but does anyone have a one-page-for-dummies on how to tune a PID web-handling loop? I always get confused when the instructions say 'change the output by a set amount' (http://www.jashaw.com/pid/tutorial/pid6.html) - but how do I do that? Do I change the setpoint?

Can you clarify the machine configuration - this is what I envisage so far:
Web is fed to a rewind shaft and as the web is wound the rewind diameter increases. The shaft is driven by the output of an adjustable clutch (air/magnetic ?). The input to the clutch is driven by a SSD controlled motor at fixed speed. There is no measure of diameter. Web tension is measured by a load cell.

allscott said:

What exactly do you mean, are you using a dancer or a load cell for feedback to the drive?

Or are you simply running the drive in torque control with an operator manually adjusting the tension with a pot?

What is the WEB you are trying to wind?

Winding applications range from dirt simple, to extremely complex depending on what you are trying to do.

Click to expand...

An answer to these would be good, along with an answer to LD's