OT - Project Documentation

Hi, i know this isn't strictly PLC (but PLC's are involved!).

Can anyone clarify the required document list below? A lot of the points just seem duplicated (or is it just me?). Some are self explanatory, some are (in my opinion) ambiguous!

1. D08 Logic Diagrams​
2. D09 Electrical / Electronic Schematics​
3. D10 One line Electrical Diagrams​
4. D11 Electrical Interconnection Diagrams​
5. D13 Electrical Schematics and wiring Diagrams​
6. S07 Instrumentation Schedule​
7. S08 Cable Schedule​
8. S09 Junction Box Schedule​

Kidblue said:

Hi, i know this isn't strictly PLC (but PLC's are involved!).

Can anyone clarify the required document list below? A lot of the points just seem duplicated (or is it just me?). Some are self explanatory, some are (in my opinion) ambiguous!

1. D08 Logic Diagrams​
2. D09 Electrical / Electronic Schematics​
3. D10 One line Electrical Diagrams​
4. D11 Electrical Interconnection Diagrams​
5. D13 Electrical Schematics and wiring Diagrams​
6. S07 Instrumentation Schedule​
7. S08 Cable Schedule​
8. S09 Junction Box Schedule​

Rob​

Click to expand...

Hi, My opinion would be

D08 Would be program listing
D09 Would be circuit diagrams and Panel Layouts
D10 Would be a line diagram showing all Panels, motors etc with a single line connecting each item
D11 Would be showing any interconnections (signals between panels)
D13 same as D09 in my opinion
S07 Instrumentation list and loop diagrams
S08 Cable list detailing type, cores, wire numbers, connected from to
S09 List of all junction boxes, with terminal layouts etc

What is the difference between S and D? Is S schedule and D drawing? Presumably you hve a customers spec asking for these docs

Rob,

I agree with CJD, but these terms are somewhat open to interpretation. They mean different things to different people in different applications.

1. D08 Logic Diagrams
A logic diagram is not a connection drawing and it is not necessarily a circuit diagram. It could simply be some block diagrams of the process flow or raw material usage. Most likely, they are referring to ladder-type circuit logic diagrams, as are found in relay ladder schematics or PLC ladder diagrams.


2. D09 Electrical / Electronic Schematics
The word "Electronic" is the clue that they may be talking about vendor or OEM internal schematics that were made by someone other than the current Contractor. In other words they want copies of all schematics that apply, whether they were made by others as part of the "electronic" components that the Contractor has assembled.



3. D10 One line Electrical Diagrams
One-Line (or Single-Line) Diagrams are a type of power schematic that has traditionally been used to show the main power flow in a plant or electrical substation. Its main purpose is to show the primary power busses and lines, the main breakers and fuses, going down to the motors and motor starters inside a plant or facility. Motor control centers often have an associated one-line diagram.

4. D11 Electrical Interconnection Diagrams
Connection diagrams and interconnection diagrams are not schematic in nature, but attempt to show the actual physical layout of the wiring connections. They are a "real" type of drawing as opposed to the imaginary "schematic" which only exists logically on paper.


5. D13 Electrical Schematics and Wiring Diagrams
This seems a catch-all phrase to cover any type of drawing that might be left out of the previous categories. Techincally, schematics are a specific type of wiring diagram. In general, schematics show the logical operation of circuits, where wiring diagrams cover a broad area, including schematics, connection diagrams, interconnection diagrams, internal wiring, control wiring, power wiring, wiring on equipment by others, and new wiring by the Contractor.

6. S07 Instrumentation Schedule

Rob,

I presume you have just been introduced to the world of VDRS/VDS.

Looks very similar to the AJS/Shell system.

I generally agree with Lancie and CJD.

If you think things don't apply make it clear at the outset and get your client to drop them off the list. From experience the process can be torturous, but the best thing to do is sit down with the client and find out exactly what they are after.

I had to go through this on a recent job for an electric fence system, but we were treated as though we were constructing a new plant. Things finally improved towards the commissioning stage when I actually sat down with their commissioning engineers and actually asked them what they were looking for as they didn't feel our document met their standards (bearing in mind it was the first time I had come across this system since moving from the tools to design).

I was even given an example document to base my new site testing document on.

Bear in mind that they will be asking for things like the cable, instrument and JB schedules to allow them to allocate their own tag numbers to the equipment.

S09 will only require the locations and types of JB. They shouldn't require internal terminal details as this would be covered by the interconnections diagrams.

What you will find with the schedules is that you will submit the documents and they will return them with comments detailing the tags. You will then have to resubmit for review again.

I wouldn't submit much more information than the schedules until you have the information as you will find documents getting returned because you don't have the tag references on them.

Remember that on first and subsquent submittals documents are to be 'For Review'. Only when approval has been given, can drawings be given construction status.

I could go on for hours but the best thing is as I said earlier, arrange a meeting with your client, see what you can remove from the list, and try and get samples or if they have them drawing standards documents.

Also remember to keep everthing orderly and well maintained as you will probably have to kill several million trees for the O&Ms.

Jon.

cjd1965 said:

Hi, My opinion would be

D08 Would be program listing
D09 Would be circuit diagrams and Panel Layouts
D10 Would be a line diagram showing all Panels, motors etc with a single line connecting each item
D11 Would be showing any interconnections (signals between panels)
D13 same as D09 in my opinion
S07 Instrumentation list and loop diagrams
S08 Cable list detailing type, cores, wire numbers, connected from to
S09 List of all junction boxes, with terminal layouts etc

What is the difference between S and D? Is S schedule and D drawing? Presumably you hve a customers spec asking for these docs

Click to expand...

Maybe difference between D13 and D09 is that in D09 you detail your component interconnection (electrical and electronic devices) showing pin-to-pin/terminal-to-terminal.
In D13 you would depict the electrical supply wiring diagram/circuit which depends on your scope of supply (eg from fused spur into your own consumer unit with MCB's into your panels...three phase into your panel red goes here...etc)

Sorry for not replying sooner (been on site).

Thanks for the feedback. It was more to clear up the ambiguity between a couple of the points (which you have helped to do!).

It was the first thing i asked cjd, but was told the S & D had no significance and was an internal ref for the end client (??)

Thanks Lancie for the detailed replies. As stated though, i understand the points in isolation, but found the request for several similiar (if not identical) documents very confusing. Again, thanks for that (and i'm sure a lot of other people will find those useful).

Jon, thanks for the words of wisdom. Yeah, i hear what you're saying! We've done maybe 6-7 (large) projects for the petro-chem industry, and boy did we kill some rain forests for those!!
This one is a little awkward as we are a sub to the sub to the sub etc...and our client is non electrical (yay! sigh) and the end client struggles with english...!


Thanks again.


Rob