Possibillities new project, MP277 317-2PN/DP

userxyz · Jul 24, 2008

Hi,

I have a new project and I have 3 possibillies in mind...

The thing is: They want communication from their office and want to be able to make new products (parameters like width...etc)

First one is Smartservice, but I don't like this one because there is no real touch with productparamters, the data is on the panel...

Second one is making offline CSV and load the recipes with an event on the panel (buttonpress for example)

Third one is the best one I think, if this works...: Using an MP277 meens that we can have an OPC server on the panel. So I would use this one and from the office I want to be able to read and write tags... An excell file or whatever has to communicate with the parameters in the machine.

Which one is the best to use... ?

JesperMP · Jul 24, 2008

Make a WinCC Flex project and use the native recipe system.
It will be reasonably cheap and way easiest method.
If you need, you can expand by using an OPC connection to 3rd party applications. I think that maybe MP277 and PC RT can share the same recipe storage location, so it will be a neat solution.
Softnet Ethernet lean with the OPC server is included in a WinCC Flex RT license, so it is free.

edit: Your 2nd suggestion is also possible. There is a function to load a CSV file with recipe data into WinCC Flexible.
Only thing is that editing a CSV file is a tad clumsy way to do it for an end-user. Can you guarantee that he dont goof up ?

userxyz · Jul 24, 2008

That's my concern too, that he will goof it up, and the recipe system in wincc flex will not accept it anymore...

Okay, I can use the native recipe system and I will..., but ...

Locally we'll have a recipe datarecord that we can load, the recipe will be some real and integer parameters.

When a recipe is chosen, the recipe has to be transmitted in a DB, the DB that the machine will use to run with.

SO far nothing new...

But, they want to be able to make products @ the office and load their products in the recipe system...

Okay, I can use the OPC server thing in flexible...

But how should I manage all thse things... making a new recipe in an excell or access for example..., with opc we have to be able to make e recipe of it..., because locally they should be able to run the product...

JesperMP said:
Make a WinCC Flex project and use the native recipe system.
It will be reasonably cheap and way easiest method.
If you need, you can expand by using an OPC connection to 3rd party applications. I think that maybe MP277 and PC RT can share the same recipe storage location, so it will be a neat solution.
Softnet Ethernet lean with the OPC server is included in a WinCC Flex RT license, so it is free.

edit: Your 2nd suggestion is also possible. There is a function to load a CSV file with recipe data into WinCC Flexible.
Only thing is that editing a CSV file is a tad clumsy way to do it for an end-user. Can you guarantee that he dont goof up ?

JesperMP · Jul 24, 2008

I think that there is the possility to use the same storage location for both MP277 and PC RT (as I said before) (*). Then you dont have to worry about having to import or export the recipes, and the recipe editing will be done in WinCC Flex which is reasonably foolproof.

*: You have to investigate it yourself to be sure. I dont use the native recipe system myself.

Here is an alternative worth considering:
I have made my own recipe system, where all the various recipes are stored in the PLC. The main reason for this is that I then do not have to worry about that there must be a live connection to a recipe server.
The various recipe editing locations then become a kind of "dumb clients".
The cost is obviously that it eats memory.
For my purposes I have 99 recipes with 50 REALs. This eats 20 kB PLC memory. Luckily for me, PLC memory isnt such an issue as it used to be.
If you have 1000 recipes with 200 REALs, then it would cost 800 kB ! So it isnt a solution for everybody.

userxyz · Jul 24, 2008

okay

Okay,

The recipe system of wincc flex is easy to use, but I don't like the one's and zero's, that's so weird for an operator.

So, saving recipes in CPU, it's not a bad IDEA...

I can make a parameter screen ... these parameters can be stored in a DB.

Many DB's can be made.

I can make strings (recipe names)...

I can transfer DB to DB

BUT...

Let's say we make a new recipe,

we give it a name..., how can a generate a DB that is linked to a name and so on... ?

How can I load a recipe...

A good thing is that OPC is more simple this way...

JesperMP said:
I think that there is the possility to use the same storage location for both MP277 and PC RT (as I said before) (*). Then you dont have to worry about having to import or export the recipes, and the recipe editing will be done in WinCC Flex which is reasonably foolproof.

*: You have to investigate it yourself to be sure. I dont use the native recipe system myself.

Here is an alternative worth considering:
I have made my own recipe system, where all the various recipes are stored in the PLC. The main reason for this is that I then do not have to worry about that there must be a live connection to a recipe server.
The various recipe editing locations then become a kind of "dumb clients".
The cost is obviously that it eats memory.
For my purposes I have 99 recipes with 50 REALs. This eats 20 kB PLC memory. Luckily for me, PLC memory isnt such an issue as it used to be.
If you have 1000 recipes with 200 REALs, then it would cost 800 kB ! So it isnt a solution for everybody.

JesperMP · Jul 24, 2008

Combo, I didnt understand a word of your last post.

userxyz · Jul 24, 2008

I'm sorry for not well explaining.

What I mean is:

When we use the recipe system in wincc flexible, then making new recipes, giving names, saving, it's all really simple.

But recipes in a PLC, how is this done..., each new recipe is a DB ?? Or am I wrong ?

JesperMP said:
Combo, I didnt understand a word of your last post.

cjd1965 · Jul 24, 2008

Hi

What about a Master DB to control upto say 100 db's. The master would simply be a list of ints and strings. The int would control which DB to use. So the screen would show a list of 1-100 strings associated with the master DB, they would then select that from the screen, and '1' would point to recipe DB '1' which would contain the recipe to load.

Somthing like this

1. Recipe 1
2. Recipe 2
...
100 Recipe 100

Please enter 1..100 to select recipe

Cheers

userxyz · Jul 24, 2008

okay

Okay,

but,

the empty DB's will be numbers allready then... or how can I deal with this..., the DB's have to be made in advance... ?

I understand that I can make a selection combo box, and write stuff for the parameters. But, what if they want to insert a new recipe, how can I do this in your way..., do they have to choose an empty DBnr ?

cjd1965 said:
Hi

What about a Master DB to control upto say 100 db's. The master would simply be a list of ints and strings. The int would control which DB to use. So the screen would show a list of 1-100 strings associated with the master DB, they would then select that from the screen, and '1' would point to recipe DB '1' which would contain the recipe to load.

Somthing like this

1. Recipe 1
2. Recipe 2
...
100 Recipe 100

Please enter 1..100 to select recipe

Cheers

userxyz · Jul 25, 2008

Batch ?

I communicated with the customer..

He wants make products in an MS Office application and send the products to the machine. All products are stored on a PC.

The guy who makes enters the parameters for products can save these on his PC and send them to the machine. When he sends more then one product then there must be some kind of Batch system, the operator needs to run/produce these products. After the production, reports have to send back to office.

So, OPC is a must. But, should I use the recipe system in the panel (there is also some kinda batch thing possible I think) or should I use the simatic net opc sever... ?

userxyz · Jul 25, 2008

manual

http://aunz.siemens.com/Productivity/CFA/Documents/IAC_Getting_Started_WinCCflexible2005_Options_en.pdf

Im reading this very good tutorial @ this moment...

userxyz · Jul 25, 2008

Jesper

Jesper, u wrote this in an other post:

JesperMP
June 2nd, 2005, 06:53 AM
A Protool project can be an OPC server to OPC clients, but only when it runs as a Protool Pro RT on a PC.
Your solution could be to convert the application from MP370 to a PC RT.
edit: It may be easier than you think. Siemens has a specially low price on Protool RT licenses when purchased together with a Siemens panel PC.

Apart from that, why is it important to access the tags via the MP370 ?
If you really want to access tags in the controller, then it will be just as easy and much cheaper to install a reguler OPC server on a PC.

If it is really Recipes or batch jobs that you want to handle via the MP370 (with the recipes or batch information coming from a PC), then that is also possible.

That's what I need !!! Batch Recipes from a PC to an HMI, so I make the anel OPC server and then this should be possible to do ?

Did you try this allready ?

userxyz · Jul 25, 2008

wincc flex help

in the help of wincc flex I found this:

- OPC server on a panel (XML)
- An OPC Cliënt/Gateway (DCOM)
- An Office PC

???

And OPC DA then ???

userxyz · Jul 25, 2008

hmm

windows ce = XML

windows xp = DA

???

This means that the image I've send with the communication over OPC DA is just fake ???

JesperMP · Jul 25, 2008

If I understand you correctly, then your customer wants to make a production plan, in other words send a list of batches to different recipes, and the system should then automatically make each batch in turn. I can imagine that they also want a report for each batch.

There is an option for PCS7 called Simatic Batch. I think it will do what your customer needs. But PCS7 is a completely different to WinCC Flexible.

In theory OPC XML should integrate with Microsoft Office, because XML is a Microsoft standard. But I have no experience with it.
Just use OPC DA between the PLC and the office PC.

How many recipes ?
How many variables per recipe ?
How many batches in the queue at one time ?

Possibillities new project, MP277 317-2PN/DP

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