I can't believe the **** you guys put up with

Back in the 90's we used a serial cable. It was the same serial cable that would work with a AB or TI PLC. We provided no options. The communications always worked at 19200, 8,n,1. Basically it was a null modem cable and you could buy it at any radio shack for $10. In the early 2000s we could see that serial port were becoming obsolete so we switched to USB and Ethernet.
What is wrong with the PLC manufacturers? Are they blind? Can't they see the hand writing on the wall? Why do they make it so difficult? Insist on standard communications.

If I were in charge of Siemens or Mitsubishi I would fire a lot of people immediately for making life so difficult for you guys. SC09 and MPI should are bad and non standard protocols.
I would fire the lot.

Someone rattle your cage again Peter?

Siemens has always had different comms to AB, all the way back to to 80's.

Its about time AB pulled their socks up and changed theirs to match Siemens, which is much better.

Nevermind, when Siemens buys AB we'll see some changes to the better then.

Give it a year, 2 at most and both the 300 and 400 range will have standard onboard ethernet.
The new 400's have 2 port switches. Possible to configure it through ethernet. Not easy, but possible.
But then again, we have Field PG's. Haven't found a PLC/Field device yet to which I cannot connect. In retrospect, a worthy investment........

In my opinion, even ethernet is too blasted complex. USB is the way to go, plug and play, with NOTHING to screw up.

TM

Ethernet is the way to go alright, I just hate that you have to pay a premium for a processor that has an ethernet port. It can't cost Siemens any more to implement that a profibus port.

Nick

Agreed, but which one?

I agree with you completely, Peter. In my opinion, AB is the worst offender of this. I'm sure someone can/will point out how another is worse but I'll stand by my claim. The manufacturers are "nickel-and-diming" us to death. I believe that the "bottom line" is the bottom line.

However, which one? (I read through the thread where you originally voiced this complaint) Already, "we" are not united on a standard. Some in this thread have already said Ethernet is too complex. Another (in that last thread) said that USB is a poor choice for PLCs. I don't have any evidence to support or rebuke either of these statements so I digress.

I've had really good luck with Red Lion's G3 series of HMIs. They offer both USB and Ethernet programming options. They do comms better than most, I think, even cross connecting manufacturers differnet platforms better than the manufacturer. They also provide pass-through programming ports.

What do you recommend? I'm willing to jump on board. As I said, Peter, I agree with you.

I would say both USB and Ethernet would be perfect. Best of both worlds, and both are expandable.

cjd1965 said:

I would say both USB and Ethernet would be perfect. Best of both worlds, and both are expandable.

Click to expand...

Does USB work over 100M? Can I access USB via VPN over the internet?

I agree that USB has many attributes in it's favour and that Ethernet could be considdered more difficult to set up.

Let's not forget firewire too for local connections.

Nick

ajbachhuber said:

I agree with you completely, Peter. In my opinion, AB is the worst offender of this.

Click to expand...

My first thought when I read Peter's remarks and omission of A/B was to go get the digital camera and take a picture of the two file drawers we have filled with cables and other devices for communication in our almost exclusively A/B controlled plant...

We must have 75 different cables, very few duplicates, and that doesn't even get into the subject of drivers.

I think it is getting better, though...maybe...

I also agree that ethernet can be a PITA, but the versatility and inexpensiveness offset that in my opinion.

Paul

I don't think Siemens has made it "hard" on us, per se. I mean, I plug my MPI cable into the MPI port, set up my comms for MPI, and it works every time. And, during the last six years or so, you don't even need MPI at all if you have an ethernet card in the rack, as you can do all of the configuration and programming that way. I've gone literally two years before without taking my MPI cable out of my case.

Besides, MPI is dual-purpose: It serves as a machine control bus as well, which allows some pretty decent networking between PLCs, which in turn allows remote access via a single modem if remote support is necessary. Yeah, it would be nice to have a serial port to do the initial configuration (such as the operator panels have), but I'm guessing that in the beginning the designers knew that anyone that was doing serious work with their processors (meaning networking and distributed control) would want to use MPI anyway, not to mention that most MPI adapters work wiith Profibus as well.

There are a dozen things that I wish Siemens would address (I can't speak for other vendors), but having a serial port is low on the list, especially since I can do nearly everything I need to do with ethernet today anyway.

Lets not forget that when decisions are made most manufacturers are hedging their bets on what the standards are going to be.

Who'd heard of USB 10 years ago, who's to say in the next couple of years USB will not be as obsolete as RS232 is seen to be now.

I remember working with PG675's, the 80's Siemens programmers that ran under CPM and not DOS, why?? I hear. Simple, at the time of design Siemens genuinely thought that CPM would become industry standard and not DOS, they were wrong but by the time they knew that it was too late.

In America, Rockwell lead the design and enforce their standards, in Europe, Siemens lead the design an ebforce theors.

Who's the main driving force behind Profibus, Siemens of course.

It would be nice to have a single standard but its never going happen whilst there are 'big company ego's'.

What I do not like is the constant sniping of Siemens by some of the 'brain-washed' American side (not all).

If you come across something which doesn't fit with your normal thought process (which is moulded by Rockwell experience), then simply ask, not declare that Siemens is rubbish. I rise to it every time .. but I do hate that.

I'm on the other side, working with AB, finding things that don't fit my normal thought process (which is moulded by Siemens experience), but I do not declare AB as rubbish. Its pointless, they are as different as chalk and cheese.

Just to play the devils advocate here, how many of us drive?

Talk about standardisation???

We can't even agree what side of the road we should all drive on.
Bought a nearside door-mounted rear view mirror recently???
Why can't I buy one of those from "Radio Shack" (or should that be "Car Shack")?
...and automobiles have been around an awful lot longer than the PLC.
It's all about protection of the corperate ideal.
Even the so-called 'standards' within the PLC world are so open to 'interpretation' (read 'vendor implementation dependant') that they become nigh-on meaningless.
Basically, it comes down to this - The very idea that I should be able to buy a SONY transformer, and it should fit and work within my PANASONIC audio amplifier is laughable.
Peter, I commend your sentiments and ideals, I really do - but what would happen if there really was only one standard - what happens when there is a need for only one manufacturer?
2d worth!

PeterW said:

Lets not forget that when decisions are made most manufacturers are hedging their bets on what the standards are going to be.

Click to expand...

Do you really believe that? I think it is just another attempt to lock you into their product.

Who'd heard of USB 10 years ago, who's to say in the next couple of years USB will not be as obsolete as RS232 is seen to be now.

Click to expand...

Actually I did and much further back than 10 years ago and I admit I was skeptical. At first it was all they could do to get a few products to work together. I talked to a HP engineer that were involved early on because they wanted to replace the parallel cable.

I see too many threads about leads and this should be a given. I would charge extra for doing work that required a special lead and I would ask the manufacturer that sells the leads to give them away for the price of a USB cable at Radio Shack. If they balk I would tell them to reduce the price of the PLC to make up for all the future lost time due to the lead. You must consider the cost of ownership and non-standard leads increase the cost of ownership.

USB and "plug and play" has been hyped since the early Windows 95 days. In any event, adding USB and Ethernet controllers can be done inexpensively to these devices. Further, there's no need for them to be complicated.

Nathan,

Go to sleep!