HMI Software for batching concrete!!!

cyrenaud

Member
Join Date
Oct 2008
Location
Montreal
Posts
1
I have a project for a complete batching system

I need to be able to store customer’s information, recipes, historic of batch, parameters (freefall ,jogs…).

Need to be user friendly for the batcher

I was looking to work with Siemens Wincc flex 2008 and SQL server for all the data

Do you think is possible or do you know better software to do that

Thanks
 
I think WinCC Flexible would work well. I think you would have to do all the SQL in scripts. I know I saw a tech note a while back using WinCC 6.0 in a concrete plant. I will see if I can find a link to it.

Not what I was looking for but may help
http://www.automation.siemens.com/hmi/html_76/pdf/stories/klotter_e.pdf

or this
http://www.meka.biz/products.asp?action=MB60M

here is what I was looking for but its asphalt not concrete.

http://www.automation.siemens.com/download/internet/cache/3/1293033/pub/de/ideas_2003_01.pdf
 
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Although I like the Siemens PLCs, I would stay away from Siemens HMIs and SCADA systems in general. I've been using Inductive Automation, and will never look back. Recently I was asked (or rather , told) by a customer to use WinCC Flex on a project, and the difference is night and day. It isn't even close.
 
Looks easy to use..etc..

But looks like a small company. They have only been around since 2003.

I would hate to base a large project on a small company. Just an observation.
 
That's a valid concern, and something I've thought about, but that's why I personally flew to Sacremento and met with their core team, and they are the real thing. Yeah, they are "upstarts", but if I were Wonderware, or Citect, or Indusoft, or Siemens, I would be very worried, and hope they just go away.
 
Compared to commercial software all industrial packages are niche - batching is especially so.

Btw, Inductive Automation has been around since 2003, but grew from custom software used and written by a system integrator that has been around over 20 years.

One more interesting point about HMI software. Vendors' old existing user base provides a substantial technological hurdle. HMIs in the late 90s - early 00s had the following properties:
1. single PC with local PLC drivers (not scalable in any way)
2. rudimentary data types and expression support
3. scripting was an afterthought - usually a crude VBA implementation
4. tag database was simple, thus homecooked (often a local text file)
5. trending came as an afterthought
5. SQL and reporting came as an even later afterthought

Bottom line, backward compatibility is the most difficult part of moving forward. Aside from Wonderware, the big guys have been doing a horrible job moving forward. I would argue that nobody is even in the ballpark of commercial technology.
 
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Think about Proficy Batch Execution (former iBatch) and a Historian database from GE Fanuc. Have it seen in big Pharma companies.
 
S7Guy said:
That's a valid concern, and something I've thought about, but that's why I personally flew to Sacremento and met with their core team, and they are the real thing. Yeah, they are "upstarts", but if I were Wonderware, or Citect, or Indusoft, or Siemens, I would be very worried, and hope they just go away.


Again...just food for thought.
How many employees do they have?
Look what happen to Wonderware (great product by the way..easy to use..etc..) but they were bought out several times right?
Look what happen to Wonderware InControl. That product is stalled..no updates are planned. I have several customers looking to replace InControl. They have complete process lines controlled by it.

Surferb,
Batching isnt a niche, All the Pharma and Chemical are doing it.


http://www.isa.org/MSTemplate.cfm?MicrositeID=275&CommitteeID=4737

Anyway, these are interesting discussions!
 
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JRW - I believe Wonderware was bought out once by Invensys. Sure there are several "mature" batching packages out there - my argument is that Industrial software as a whole is a niche market (high price, low install base, relatively slow release cycle). Let's take a step back - compare a moderately popular open source project or a "medium" sized software company to any single HMI product out there besides inTouch. You'll find that the industrial packages are "tiny" in terms of: developers, install base, maturity, types of bugs, etc. Now consider that batching packages are a small subset in that arena. We're not talking Microsoft Office or even Quickin - more like MINIX, or something more obscure, except with a much smaller user base and less tested.

I don't think an employee count is the right question. The key difference is in their approach - that they leverage existing standard technology(mostly LGPL packages). For example, FactoryPMI runs a custom Apache Tomcat core with an HSQLDB database, JFreeChart for trending, Jython for scripting, and even began life as Sun's Bean Builder. Each of these Open Source core components, and there are more, has more man-hours devoted than even the industry leaders packages. I'm not claiming this as better or worse - my point is that you're not going to get a correlation between the size of the company and the quality of their niche software. What percentage of AB/Rockwell employees do you think are RSBatch developers?


JRW said:
Again...just food for thought.
How many employees do they have?
Look what happen to Wonderware (great product by the way..easy to use..etc..) but they were bought out several times right?
Look what happen to Wonderware InControl. That product is stalled..no updates are planned. I have several customers looking to replace InControl. They have complete process lines controlled by it.

Surferb,
Batching isnt a niche, All the Pharma and Chemical are doing it.


http://www.isa.org/MSTemplate.cfm?MicrositeID=275&CommitteeID=4737

Anyway, these are interesting discussions!
 
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JRW said:
Again...just food for thought.
How many employees do they have?
Look what happen to Wonderware (great product by the way..easy to use..etc..) but they were bought out several times right?
Look what happen to Wonderware InControl. That product is stalled..no updates are planned. I have several customers looking to replace InControl. They have complete process lines controlled by it.

Of course, anything can happen. Even the big companies phase out product lines that cause huge inconvenious and expense for others (S5 says hello), but it's just the nature of the controls business.

And that's why I did research, and IA was by far the best choice for me. For one thing, the one thing that I have always hated with every scada package is no longer an issue: licensing based on tag counts. I was evaluating Indusoft at the same time, and it turned out that my requirements were right at the border of the next step in licensing. But IA? It doesn't matter. I can have 200,000 tags if I want, all for the same price. I can design my project without even giving it a thought.

Another thing I researched was tech support, and I can say that no one else even comes close. It's beyond my wildest expectations. What could be construed as a disadvantage (being a small company), is a huge advantage because I can actually talk to the guys in development. And if one of us (the users) have a good idea for a feature, low and behold it's in the next update a month later.

The third thing I looked at was performance. I have seen projects based on every scada package ever made, and my screens are just as clean and "snappy" as anything out there. And, I probably did it with far less development effort.

A package like WinCC has its place I guess (like, when you're forced to use it :) ), but IA lets me be much more competitive. I don't even know what the comparative base cost of the two packages are, but the speed in which I can develop using IA really seals the deal.
 
cyrenaud said:
I have a project for a complete batching system

I need to be able to store customer’s information, recipes, historic of batch, parameters (freefall ,jogs…).

Need to be user friendly for the batcher

I was looking to work with Siemens Wincc flex 2008 and SQL server for all the data

Do you think is possible or do you know better software to do that

Thanks

Why not buy a dedicated concrete batching system? I formerly worked for Auto Control which was purchased by Alkon, which now appears to have merged (?) with CommandData to become CommandAlkon.
http://www.commandalkon.com/
 
If a dedicated "precanned" package meets your needs then definately use it over a generalized application that you have to program. This will save you lots of time and money. Just make sure to cover yourself for the forseeable, "can we add/interconnect this?"

agarb said:
Why not buy a dedicated concrete batching system? I formerly worked for Auto Control which was purchased by Alkon, which now appears to have merged (?) with CommandData to become CommandAlkon.
http://www.commandalkon.com/
 

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