UL Approval - State of Washington

Hi all, i have a project for a machine we are exporting to washington coming up that demands to be inspected by UL and approved before going into service - and at $3000 a pop for an inspection its not something i am looking forward too!

Basically we sell a lot to the US and as we are CE approved we never have any problems but i can forsee bacause of this state they will try to pick fault with anything and everything they can, we generally follow:

BS EN 60204-1
BS EN 14121
BS EN ISO 13849
BS EN ISO 12100

and also the machinery directive, HASWA, PUWER etc.


I do have a recent copy of NFPA79 but we always try to follow more international or european standards where possible.

Does anyone have any advice as to what to look out for? Or any mandatory requirements that may be applicable to UL?

I plan on getting all the design work looked at by both the UK UL lab's and also the US side who will eventually carry out the initial assesments before production begins...

All our components/cabinets etc. are UL approved.

Any advise is appreciated,

Many Thanks,
Brian.

The biggest thing is just to make sure that everything in the panel is UL Certified or Recognized. If the mark isn't on the product have the backup paperwork ready. It's good to have the paperwork ready in any case. They will check the wire and all components for the mark. As long as you follow NFPA 70 and NEC then you should be ok. If it is a control panel then UL 409 will also apply. If it controls a burner or in some other special applications there are other UL certifications that will apply as well.

Depending on the inspector it can be very easy or very difficult. My old inspector was a great guy to work with. He knew I knew what to do so he came in once very few months and gave us a quick once over and then left. The guy before him was a real jerk. He would waste half my day making me drag out paperwork he knew darn well we had.

Good luck on your job!

Brian

I live here in Washington state ie Seattle. They are adamant over a piece of equipment having a UL sticker on it
OR inspected by another local outfit and blessed.

I have been told by machinery manufacturers elsewhere in US that they will not ship an existing product to Washington because they do not want to pay for UL

What gets me is - you use all UL components have an engineer design it AND then you still have to submit to UL. I dont have to understand it just live with it.

I am not sure if Washington electrical inpsector even knows what NFPA 79 is nor care. What they will care about if NFPA 70 (Nat'l Electrical Code). I recommend you know 70 backwards and fowards and able to recite in your sleep. That is what the local inspector will go by. Make damn double sure there is no way the UL sticker on the cabinet can get damaged - I have seen them stop install until factory sent out new sticker.

Do not forget
you have to ensure the local inspector will buy off on it or will not allow hookup.
That is the guy(s) you must please.

There is also the plumbing inspector, mechanical (HVAC refers etc), boiler or pressure vessel guy, and the list goes on.

Check with the City where machine is going to. Sometimes here in Washington a city may have some oddball rule that will screw you up.
EXAMPLE City of Seattle has an energy code - does not allow single pass on water cooled heat exchangers ie once thru and dump to sewer.

Some basic thought lockable disconnect on machine - Boeing for example will insist on it. Make sure your connectors lugs etc temp rating matches that of your conductor. Watch out for deratings. Ground transformer secondary, - oh lawzy the list goes on and on.

Let me know if I can help more.

Bernie you build machinery - what say you - am I fullofit or not??
What have I forgot?

Dan Bentler

Dan - I'm basically only on the program side. We have great electrical guys here who seem to know this stuff 'backwards and forwards' as you say. They deal with the UL guy.

Thanks for the info. so far... we actually have machine's at boeing already although possibly not at washington, lol.

Most things listed so far are erm.. well common practice in my eyes but we had a very similiar thing years back with a machine that the CE mark had dropped off, lol.


I am hoping the U/L guy know's more than the last one i dealt with - he was playing hell that two cables (apparantly 600V and 300V) were too close to each other - shame he didn't realise the numbers on the side of the wires were the insulation break-down voltage not the actual voltage going through them! took a few ranty phone calls to make him understand! lol

leitmotif said:

Brian

I live here in Washington state ie Seattle. They are adamant over a piece of equipment having a UL sticker on it
OR inspected by another local outfit and blessed.

I have been told by machinery manufacturers elsewhere in US that they will not ship an existing product to Washington because they do not want to pay for UL

What gets me is - you use all UL components have an engineer design it AND then you still have to submit to UL. I dont have to understand it just live with it.

I am not sure if Washington electrical inpsector even knows what NFPA 79 is nor care. What they will care about if NFPA 70 (Nat'l Electrical Code). I recommend you know 70 backwards and fowards and able to recite in your sleep. That is what the local inspector will go by. Make damn double sure there is no way the UL sticker on the cabinet can get damaged - I have seen them stop install until factory sent out new sticker.

Do not forget
you have to ensure the local inspector will buy off on it or will not allow hookup.
That is the guy(s) you must please.

There is also the plumbing inspector, mechanical (HVAC refers etc), boiler or pressure vessel guy, and the list goes on.

Check with the City where machine is going to. Sometimes here in Washington a city may have some oddball rule that will screw you up.
EXAMPLE City of Seattle has an energy code - does not allow single pass on water cooled heat exchangers ie once thru and dump to sewer.

Some basic thought lockable disconnect on machine - Boeing for example will insist on it. Make sure your connectors lugs etc temp rating matches that of your conductor. Watch out for deratings. Ground transformer secondary, - oh lawzy the list goes on and on.

Let me know if I can help more.

Bernie you build machinery - what say you - am I fullofit or not??
What have I forgot?

Dan Bentler

Click to expand...

A few more things to add that may bite you at the end besides the above.
All wiring (including shielded or unshielded cabling for analog stuff has to be rated for 600V, Belden part number M1120A will do every time for analog with UL inspectors).
Clearly mark incoming power L1, L2, L3 and Ground (PE for you guys).
Those are labels that must be on the back panel above the Main machine breaker.
Use labels for everything.
TBx, etc and each device.
Use labels for each terminal block strip that include Torque for terminal blocks (as in Nm).
Same for the Main Braker, Branch circuit protection breakers, etc.
Use labels that do all of the above for each device if you can.
If you do use Circuit Breakers for Branch protection make sure you do use the ones rated for the task (this is major)
Something like ABB S203U-K15 (3 Phase, 15A, big difference , it has the ears/barriers (Top & Bottom, each gets one per side) that are required for Branch Protection CBs.
As far as components, if you are building a NEMA 4, all components including push buttons, selector switches and the rest MUST be rated NEMA4 OR ELSE, one rated for NEMA 12 and here goes your entire panel from NEMA 4 rating downgraded to NEMA 12 automatically.
Avoid punching holes in the enclosure (most inspectors have a fit with extra holes).
If you absolutely have to....use the right knockout plug that will ensure your NEMA4, 12 or whatever rating.
And as mentioned a few times already, everything has a UL approved stamp will get you half way there.
EN files are always a plus. They come in handy when in doubt or in an argument (I wouldn't recommend the second one though!!).

If it becomes a large part of your business, consider getting your shop certified to make UL508A Panels. It will cost an initial fee to set up the file, a yearly maintenance fee and quarterly inspection fees (all inspections are un-announced).

The UK office is here:
The Guildway
Wonersh House Building C
Old Portsmouth Road
Guildford Surrey GU3 1LR, United Kingdom
Telephone: +44.148.340.2010 | Fax: +44.148.330.2230
E-mail: [email protected]


OR

See if a local panel building shop with UL approval will certify the panel for you. We are a UL 508 shop but not CSA. We work with another local shop when we need a CSA panel certified.

If you want to know if a shop is certified, you can go to http://www.ul.com
click on the certifications link at the bottom

Type in the company name (wildcards ok) and for the UL catagory code put in NITW.

Brian

Out of interest, what sort of machine is it ?

504bloke said:

Brian

Out of interest, what sort of machine is it ?

Click to expand...

Its a rather large tube manipulation machine for aerospace...


One quote i would like to comment on, why would "ALL" wiring need to be rated for 600V? The general rule from BS EN 60204-1 states that...

“Where those circuits operate at different voltages, the conductors shall be separated by a suitable barrier or shall be insulated for the highest voltage to which any conductor within the same duct can be subjected, for example line-line voltage for an unearthed system and phase to earth voltage for an earthed system.”

Brian Hamilton said:

“Where those circuits operate at different voltages, the conductors shall be separated by a suitable barrier or shall be insulated for the highest voltage to which any conductor within the same duct can be subjected, for example line-line voltage for an unearthed system and phase to earth voltage for an earthed system.”

Click to expand...

That is the same requirement we have here.
If you are building a control panel then you probably will be listed under UL508A which is very close, but not exact, to NFPA79. Pay attention to our color codes for wires, your 'light blue' for a grounded conductor will be difficult to get accepted, but the green/yellow for PE will be okay.

Jim Dungar said:

That is the same requirement we have here.
If you are building a control panel then you probably will be listed under UL508A which is very close, but not exact, to NFPA79. Pay attention to our color codes for wires, your 'light blue' for a grounded conductor will be difficult to get accepted, but the green/yellow for PE will be okay.

Click to expand...

Interesting point the "light blue", technically that colour as per BS EN60204-1 is only for use with a neutral (or 0V as you may know it) - for example i have never used "light blue" for a grounded conductor on a transformer e.g 400/110V - more often red on both wires. After all a neutral and grounded conductor are not technically not the same thing...

Out of interest what would you class as common colours as per NFPA79, i do have them written down "somewhere"... lol

Thanks,
Brian.

Brian Hamilton said:

Interesting point the "light blue", technically that colour as per BS EN60204-1 is only for use with a neutral (or 0V as you may know it) - for example i have never used "light blue" for a grounded conductor on a transformer e.g 400/110V - more often red on both wires. After all a neutral and grounded conductor are not technically not the same thing...

Out of interest what would you class as common colours as per NFPA79, i do have them written down "somewhere"... lol

Thanks,
Brian.

Click to expand...

In the US, the majority of neutral connections are grounded (bonded to ground). One leg of almost every control circuit is grounded (there are few exceptions). Our National Electric Code requires us to bond the circuit to ground if the resulting L-G voltage will be <150V.

NFPA 79/UL508A colors, from memory are:
Black - line voltage
Red - AC control voltage lower than line voltage
Blue - DC control voltage lower than line voltage
White - Neutral/grounded conductor (may have colored stripes)
Green or Green w/Yellow stripes - Grounding conductor
Orange - Voltage from a source external to the control panel, so it is not controlled by the panel disconnect.

Here's from 508A 66.9.1 (This section applies to Industrial Machinery and references NFPA 79)

Black - all ungrounded control circuit conductors operating at the line voltage

Red - ungrounded ac control circuits operating at less than the supply voltage

Blue - ungrounded dc control circuits

Yellow & Orange - ungrounded control circuits or other wiring, such as for cabinet lighting, that remain energized when the main disconnect is in the off position

White or gray or three white stripes on other than green, blue, orange or yellow - grounded ac current-carrying control circuit conductor regardless of voltage.

White with blue stripe - grounded dc current-carrying control circuit conductor

White with yellow stripe or white with orange stripe - grounded ac control circuit current-carrying conductor that remains energized when the main disconnect is in the "off" position.

From NEC
GROUNDED conductor White can also be gray or predominant white with stripe aka neutral - carries current bonded to ground

GROUNDING CONDUCTOR green or bare does not normally carry current, can be bare,

ORANGE is for wild leg on center grounded delta. Becoming more rare as time goes on.

Any color other than those above can be used for current carrying conductors.


Common practice in USA
480 3 phase commonly colored Brown Orange Yellow
240 or 208 3 phase commonly colored Black Red Blue
These are the standard practice at Boeing.

It is nice to see that NFPA 79 and UL 508 are getting some of these wire colors straightened out.

Dan Bentler

Thanks for the info. so far, i agree its good to see the various standards start to come together - about time too!

One of the hardest things over here in the UK is finding wire to meet US spec, e.g. blue with a white stripe can take some serious finding - often incurring a charge to get some normal blue stuff striped.

Quick Q.

I was looking some time ago at spliting our 24V PSU into two seperate supplies; one grounded for general 24V control and the other ungrounded (or floating) for more sensitive equipment, in the UK this would be classed as PELV and SELV but would that be acceptable in the US?

Many Thanks,
Brian...

P.S if any1 has a sly copy of UL508/A feel free to let me know... not that i would condone such a thing. ;P