Solar Power In Industry

Our Environmental Manager had some gentlemen in to look
at our plant to see if we were a good candidate for solar power. They said that our plant could be 95% solar dependent.
I have not done the research yet,but that sounds unreal, plus they say that we could have a 3 year payback.
Have any of you seen a successfull Solar application in a
industrial plant. We have about 4- 125 hp motors in our plant ,plus lighting, and many 15 hp motors.
What about Snow and Ice on the panels?
Also ,would you have any good links?
Also , what about Wind Turbines. We have a quarry that we
can have a entire farm. Are some areas better with available wind , and it seems like the wind turbines could be geared
that less wind would be needed.
I need to study this more.

Thanks in advance,

Hi Rob,

95% sounds really high. In Colorado, we have about 5.6 hours of effective sulight. This is a number from the National Renewable Energy Labs (NREL, www.nrel.gov)that takes into account clouds, sun angle during the day, etc. Trackers add about another 25% (azimuth only, elevation is not worth it). I had a quote for my house where after getting about 40% rebate from the utilities and onother 20% from the feds, I was still left with about $12K out of pocket. The ROI on this would take about 15 years calculating in my energy savings. I don't think I have seen a single solar financial analysis yielding a 3 year payback.

Remember, in all alternative energies righ now, ie. wind, solar. They are sporadic. Solar has cloudy days and availability for the day. Wind can be from zero to the max in a matter of minutes. Right now, there are no practical forms of energy storage so you must use it or lose it. It is a good supplement to your plant so certainly investigate the possibilities.

Best Regards,

Rjay

[Our Environmental Manager had some gentlemen in to look
at our plant to see if we were a good candidate for solar power. They said that our plant could be 95% solar dependent.
I have not done the research yet,but that sounds unreal, plus they say that we could have a 3 year payback.
REPLY You sound skeptical - I think that is a good thing.
Can it be done YES
Wlll it be expensive OH YES
Will it pay for itself in three years? PROBABLY not.
If it were a lighting upgrade ie replacing ballasts and lamps in existing fixtures you may get three year payoff. That is tne next best to insulation and is the second low hanging fruit favorite.

If these guys are so sure then have them finance the whole deal and the two of you split the savings. This has been commonly done on lighting upgrades, heat pump heat systems and some motor upgrades. I predict you will see a lot of hemming and hawiing on their part and a great reluctance.

Have any of you seen a successfull Solar application in a
industrial plant. We have about 4- 125 hp motors in our plant ,plus lighting, and many 15 hp motors.
REPLY on this website and others you see some factories with solar panels on roof tops, nice pictures and all that but no data to show performance either electrical or financial.

What about Snow and Ice on the panels?
REPLY Would definitely diminish capacity since both especially snow are very good at reflecting light.

Also ,would you have any good links?
REPLY Would also recommend EREN. They seem to be most unbiased and accurate data. Check with your utility for information. Another good resource is Washington State University - they have an energy efficiency group.


Also , what about Wind Turbines. We have a quarry that we
can have a entire farm. Are some areas better with available wind , and it seems like the wind turbines could be geared
that less wind would be needed.
REPLY A lot of people with sailboats say the wind is free - well it is UNTIL you go to the sail shop - I have a sailboat - the cost of capture and untilization of wind is NOT free. Wind is not all that easy. There are relatively few locations based on percentile land area that will work out. I believe EREN has wind maps that predict performance of wind generation. I believe you will find wind is not recommended unless wind velocity is 30 mph or more and for EXTENDED duration ie hours. Seattle yearly average velocity is 7.5 over the period 1996 to 2006 per Nat Weather Service data. yes we have some pretty good winds and storms but today there is almost no wind. Summer sailing in Puget Sound is often done with an engine - there are a lot of mill pond smooth summer days.

I need to study this more
REPLY Oh yes - there are a lot of snake oil guys in the wind and solar energy business and there are some people who really know what they are talking about - the trick of course is finding the good guys.

One of the issues with either solar or wind is when you are generating lots of power and you are meeting your own load plus a surplus - what do you do with surplus? Four options
1. Sell to utility
2. Charge battery bank
3. Dump to waste heat
4. Turn off generator ie feather turbine or other method - they must have overspeed trip and overload trip - and in case of solar pull the shades maybe??

Some of the issues for options above
1. Sell to utility is probably best. Here in Washington state utilities are required to allow feeding power back. In essance your equipment is paralleled to grid. However they get to specify the equipment you will need to do it. Will take special switchgear and controls. They may not and probably will not let you become an islanded generation plant able to keep their system energized in case of outage without even more controls. Gets expensive.
2. Need battery charger more controls - may be good option
3. Seems kind of silly to buy equipment and dump the power
4. Would have to research this more.

Dan Bentler

I agree that the pay back time does not sound right. I learnt a long time ago never to trust a salesman, a lot of them only tell you what you want to hear.

Regards Alan Case

A recent study I've read on this subject stated that the average home would require an average of 63 solar panels asuming you are using 100w solar panels. The 100 watt being a common size in solar panels. I would imagine an industrial plant would require several times that amount depending on your KW/hour usage. The other major cost is the battery storage plus the cost of the inverter. I would recommend before you convert to sloar that you also research methods to reduce your power consumption this could reduce the cost to set up solar. One other tid bit is that recent studies are showing a problem with wind turbines affecting residence in the aea due to the noise generating. A lot of local residence close to wind generators have been reporting health related problems with sleep habits, migraines and headaches

We do a lot of work with wind and soral companies. In any discussions that I have had with them the use of solar or wind power generation is used as a means to provide a continuous power suppliment to the grid. Wind power is most available to coastal areas and mountain slopes. These areas usually have steady wind 80% of the time. The unavaliable times are when it is blowing to hard or soft.

For solar power extreem heat and cold will impact efficiency. In the south solar panels produce the best result in the morning and the afternoon when it is cooler. They still produce at high noon even thoughless effeciently. You will get better yeild then in areas like Maine where although it does not get as hot there is more cloud cover.

Recent inovations in solar have resulted in higher yeild more durable panels. Snow and ice can be dealt with although it will add to the cost of your system. I recently read an article about a big facility in Iowa or one of the statesin that area that has installed solar and is seeing great return. Some companies are installing low energy LED lighting and using Solar and stored energy to run those as phase 1 of their green initiatves. I thing I would choose that route and then hopefully when it comes time to take the more critical parts of the plant in the green realm there will be better soluutions.

I will try and find a link the article I was talking about and post it here.

Our Environmental Manager had some gentlemen in to look at our plant to see if we were a good candidate for solar power. They said that our plant could be 95% solar dependent.

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....they say that we could have a 3 year payback.

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...We have about 4- 125 hp motors in our plant ,plus lighting, and many 15 hp motors.

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I think this gentleman is smoking crack if he thinks it will be cost effective to run this plant on solar panels at all (in Maryland, no less), never mind getting a payback.

I'd like to see the numbers he comes up with. Unless there is some serious government money thrown into the pot that he has access to, it just isn't possible.

Off the top of my head, recent calculations for solar power have given a 30 to 50 year payback, cash on cash, with no government subsidy. With government subsidies, the payback drops to around 20 years. This excludes interest and depreciation. Some of my associates believe that this will mean that you will never get a payback at all.

Wind power also does not seem to be viable. The town Esperence in WA has very steady winds. It also has 30% of its nameplate power as wind power. It actually only generates less that 5% of the town's power from wind. The rest is diesel electric.

In Germany they call wind farming "Subsidy Farming". Each farmer has six turbines on hi property to get the subsidy. Each farmer has only one turbine running at any given time, thus qualifying for the subsidy while minimizing wear and maintenance.

I have personally gone from being a solar and wind proponent to now smelling a scam.

My advice is do the maths before buying. If the maths works out, let me know. I would like to be a proponent again.

Doug

As I said yesterday we do a lot of business with he manufacturers of Wind and Solar power products. Because of this I have done a lot of research intothe uses of these techologies. Living in Maine energy is a big cost factor in every day living. What I have found is that the Wind and Solar generation solutions are only a part of the solution.

For one thing you cannot count on the wind or sun co-operating with you usage needs so you need a way to store the power for when it is needed. This means batteriers and they are not cheap. They also require maintenence and the cores are toxic so when they become unusable you need a way to dispose of them with out endangering the environemnt.

The other thing is efficient use of that energy. Low voltage products are much better for this solution. You are not going to be able to replace a moter for a conveyor that is moving ton's of product with a low votage unit.

There is a house in Maine that is completely green and makes its owners money every year becasue they are able to sell more power to the power company than they have to buy from them. However, they accomplish this by have all low voltage appliances and lights. It saw a figure once that they spent more money on the green upgrades than they did in buyng the house and property.

My point is that I agree with Doug.

Is it socially responsible to reduce your carbon foot print and your enrgy signiture? Most definely, but what is the true cost of this.

Hmm pie in the sky, more great never to be fulfilled corporate plans, or,,,, -- who knows?
Wonder if he has even filed an environmental impact statement?
Of course if Paul Allen and the gang of stadium builders are behind it they will probably get it done and on line by 2011. These guys seem to me the only ones who can do anything.
Dan Bentler



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009441447_websolar09m.html

"The sunny, Central Washington town of Cle Elum could be the site of the world's largest solar power plant, if a Washington company makes good on plans announced today.

Teanaway Solar Reserve hopes to gain approval from Kittitas County to build a 75 megawatt plant, made up of 400,000 photovoltaic panels. The energy produced would be enough for 45,000 homes, said Howard Trott, the Kirkland man who heads the operation.

Trott said he expects the plant to be operational by 2011."

I suspect that energy generation will continue on the path that it is on at the moment. That is, generation is only ever economical if you do it with an economy of scale.

With the development of technology, large scale, base load solar energy generation is a reality, and we will start seeing pilot plants soon, but I just dont see how individual people/businesses will ever (or at least in the near to medium term) be able to financially justify it, without some sort of serious Cost Benefit Analysis with factors other than cost.

I ran some setups through this site:

http://bpsolar.cleanpowerestimator.com/bpsolar.htm

to see if solar would pay off for my house. Living in the heart of the Midwest, very few scenarios worked in my favour. I'd like to do solar, just to get a drop in my monthly bills, but it seems as if the equipment is way too much for too little power. A business may be able to justify it, especially in the South or West, but I think the panels need to come down in price a lot.

I looked at solar for our industrial plant to shave off some of the $600K in electricity costs per month. With all the equipment needed, the payback was right at 23 years (with all the state and govt subsidies). Not worth it in the long run since most equipment had a design life of about 25 years.


On a completely different note, our plant went to waterless urinals. NOT a great idea!

On a completely different note, our plant went to waterless urinals. NOT a great idea![/quote]


If you went to outhouses, you could collect methane and run on natural gas...

brucechase said:

I looked at solar for our industrial plant to shave off some of the $600K in electricity costs per month. With all the equipment needed, the payback was right at 23 years (with all the state and govt subsidies). Not worth it in the long run since most equipment had a design life of about 25 years.
On a completely different note, our plant went to waterless urinals. NOT a great idea!

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Bruce
Not shocked at financial calcs on solar power procuction.

I want to hear more about waterless urinals and why you say not green. I may have my own thoughts on subject but want to hear yours.

Dan Bentler