Please help; PLC3-10 to RED LION (G3 or Data Station Plus)

It seems simple - doesn't it?

Perhaps I have been spoiled with Omron?


A few things I must say before I pose any questions -

1. I have searched this forum but found nothing solid that would help.
2. PLC Upgrade is not an option.
3. I am aware I could use OPC and something like ICONICS DataWorX but I really wish to avoid the PC based solutions unless it was an embedded XP or CE device and even then, would prefer Modbus/TCP.

Intro...
Where I work, we have several facilities with several PLC3-10 PLCs. I wish to connect a RED LION Data Station Plus (referred to as DSP from here in) to connect with all of these facilities in order to create a data link with some other PLC types on other facilities (Mitsubishi A3N and OMRON CS1).

The 3 facilities in question have thier own DH (via a 1775 KF2) which (if it were supported in the DSP) would be perfect - but it seems not to be.


Alternatives...

• Is there an Ethernet card / option available for these PLC3-10s?
• Does anyone know of an alternative to the DSP with similar functionality (Flexible GUI based Data Linking & bridging, multi-protocol ports, data logging etc) that can easily interface with these old PLCs?
• I would be willing to use a protocol converter connected to the DH (e.g. DH-->Modbus/TCP or DH-->EtherNet/IP) then connect the converted protocol to the DSP - is there such a device (note DH not DH+)?
• I would even wire up a SERIAL Multi-drop network & connect them together - to the RS485 port on the DSP - is this feasible?

Some info...

The PLCs have varying cards but this could be changed if deemed absolutely necessary - the only common element is the DH 1775 KF2 (but as already stated, the DSP doesn't seem to support DH). Additionally, most have 1771-DB basic cards fitted (I could get another for the PLC which does not). The 1771-DB has configurable ports that can be set to DF1 or DH-485 and while the DSP has serial protocols for DF1 and DH-485, they don’t explicitly support PLC3 - this poses even more questions...

• Are PLC3 and PLC5 DF1 protocols compatible & is DF1 multi-drop possible?
• Are PLC3 and SLC DH-485 protocols compatible & is DH-485 multi-drop capable when provided via a 1771-DB Basic Module?

Assuming for a minute communication to the DSP using DF1 or DH-485 through a basic card is feasible, is there a need for basic programming to get access to the PLC3 registers?

Lastly, what if I were to purchase & install a DH+ enabled card then use one of the www.********************* or http://prosoft-technology.com products to convert to either Modbus/TCP or EtherNet/IP - would this be a suitable stable solution that would work with the PLC3-10?

I appreciate this is a lot to ask, so please feel free to point out the obvious (including that I am clueless with AB products), comment on your experiences & any advice at all regarding my requirements.


Many thanks for taking the time to read this, Steve.

I cant find any info on the KF2 card, only the 1770 KF2.

Is the highway you have connecting the 3 plc3's a DH+ one or DH.

I'm not old enough for a PLC3 and hove only ever seen photos of PLC5's !

It appears that the currently installed cards are DH+, which is a protocol that we do not support. If there is a DH485 card available, we should be able to talk to the PLCs through that.

Regards,
Dan

If theres no dh485 available then what about sticking a 5/04 on the DH+ network and using the 5/04 to get the required info from the plc3's to the g3 by df1 or dh485 ?

The 5/04 thing would work, it could grab the data from the DH+ PLCs, then the DSP could connect to the 5/04 via DF1 to gather all of the information.

Regards,
Dan

Plenty of 5/04's here, all you would need then is a Rack and PSU for it. As long as you have Logix500 you will be away!

My question would be is the existing network Data Highway or Data Highway Plus?

I have no PLC-3 experience or familiarity with the modules listed by the O.P...

DH+ should work, DH would not.

Not looking good

Hi all & thanks for taking the time to reply.

504bloke said:

I cant find any info on the KF2 card, only the 1770 KF2.

Is the highway you have connecting the 3 plc3's a DH+ one or DH.

Click to expand...

Quite right, it is a 1770 KF2 destop module. Are the 1770 KF2 units DH+ compatable? Not that I suppose it matters too much since the DSP doesn't support DH or DH+ but if the KF2 is DH+ then I can find a few DH+ to other_protocol convertors - this may prove to be an acceptable solution! Anyone?

DanYost said:

It appears that the currently installed cards are DH+, which is a protocol that we do not support. If there is a DH485 card available, we should be able to talk to the PLCs through that.

Regards,
Dan

Click to expand...

As stated in my loooooong first post, there is DH485 but alas, this is from the front of a 1771-DB basic card.
If I was to network the 3 PLC's via the 1771-DB basic cards, would this work with the DSP?
Would there be some basic code to write to read in & out data from the DH485?

OkiePC said:

My question would be is the existing network Data Highway or Data Highway Plus?

Click to expand...

I am unsure but suspect only DH. Can anyone confirm DH+ functionality or does DH / DH+ functionality it depend on what the KF2 connects to on the PLC?




Any other solutions would be considered even fitting a 5/04 PLC to interconnect the facilities DH networks - but since the 3 individual DH networks currently run at 9600 BAUD and likely have duplicate station numbers (these can be changed) wouldn't that slow the existing COMMS to a crawl (approx factor of 3 slower if connecting 3 DH networks together & adding in a 5/04). Anyways, if I was to add in another PLC, wouldn't it be beneficial to add a PLC5e that has EtherNet/IP availible to it?

I really need to get something moving quick & would greatly appreciate some quick responses.

Many thanks, Steve.

sd00 said:

If I was to network the 3 PLC's via the 1771-DB basic cards, would this work with the DSP?

Click to expand...

I am not familiar with that card, but as long as it has a pin for transmit enable (like a SLC503 or AIC module has on pin 5) we should be able to communicate with it.

Regards,
Dan

A Little Hope

DanYost said:

I am not familiar with that card, but as long as it has a pin for transmit enable (like a SLC503 or AIC module has on pin 5) we should be able to communicate with it.

Regards,
Dan

Click to expand...

Dan, All,

From the 1771-DB manual...
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/um/1771-um113_-en-p.pdf




Use CALL 122 to read up to 63 words of data from a remote DF1 node (PLC-2, -3, or -5) to the BTW buffer, and/or a string within the BASIC module.


The DF1 port can operate with full-duplex or half-duplex slave protocol.


and

Use CALL 123 to write up to 63 words of data from BTW buffer and/or a string within the BASIC module to remote DF1 node (PLC-2[, -3[, or -5 processor).


Since the DSP supports DF1, is this good news?

I may be putting 2 + 2 together here hoping the answer is 4 but to me that reads "CALL 122 can be used in the basic commands to read data from a remote PLC-3 via DF1 & thus the PLC-3 itself would understand a CALL 122 request from another node (i.e the DSP)". Does this seem like it would / might work?


Regards, Steve.

Thank you for the manual.

I don't think the CALL function will help at all, as currently we only have a master DF1 driver and not a slave. The DSP is going to need to do the polling of the PLC to get the data, the PLC will not be able to poll us.

It appears that it will act as a pass-through device when in network mode, which seems to be the most promising of options. It is still unclear if it has the hardware handshaking that we use, but I would say it is worth a shot. You can contact our Director of European Sales, Roy Johnson (royj at redlion.net) to talk to him about getting a demo unit in for testing.

I apologize for my lack of confidence in my answer, but the fact that the other 2 posters in this thread are not familiar with the PLC3 make me feel a LITTLE better. This is one of the cases where trying it is the only way to find if it will work.

Regards,
Dan

Can you post part numbers of the PLC3's and also the whats in the rack ? Including some photos would be good.

Some of the DH+ protocol convertors to ethernet are not that good so be careful what you get and lets try and make sure what you have DH+ or DH485 ?!

For your information the Data Station Plus does support the Allen Bradley DH485 protocol, see photo. But DataHighway 485 (DH485) will not talk to DataHighway Plus (DH+). And i would bet the PLC3 would operate the same as a PLC 5 or SLC on DH485.

Is there a 1775-KA, S5 or SR5 installed in the PLC Rack ?

sd00 said:

1. PLC Upgrade is not an option.

Click to expand...

Why ?

Originally Posted by sd00 http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?p=338590#post338590

1. PLC Upgrade is not an option.

504bloke said:

Why ?

Click to expand...

Not an option at this time due to continuous production & financial restraints.

I know (as do my collegues) that this must be done (we apply for funds every year) but it is a rather large installation and the upgrade path is not so simple (octal IO addressing, program re-write etc).

Shame, Control Logix would be nice and could use any 1771 remote IO

See here

It would be easier as the Clx would have ethernet and talk to a DSP or G3.

From what you say above i think you may have to add an SR5 card to each PLC3/10 and then connect them together using DH+. This could then have an SLC put on the DH+ which would talk to the G3 or DSP, BUT i can find no info on getting the info from a PLC3/10 on DH+ to an SLC so dont know if its possible.

You could make a new post for the older ab guys here entitled

"Calling All Oldie AB PLC 3 Experts" and point them here as they may have missed this thread.

I found some PLC3 info listed here

http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/td/1775-td021_-en-p.pdf

http://samplecode.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/td/1770-td039_-en-p.pdf

http://samplecode.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/td/1775-td063_-en-e.pdf

http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/du/1775-du003_-en-e.pdf

An SR5 runs around £600 on ebay from PLC Center here

But like i said i cant find any info on getting plc3 data over dh+ to an slc....