Dynamic - Hot Swappable PCs

robertmee · Sep 17, 2009

Had to fly to California this weekend because a PC I installed back in Oct 01 (still running Windows NT and RSView32 6.3) crashed. Because their local tech support was unfamiliar with View32 I got drafted to make an emergency east coast-west coast trip. Because the plant lost some production, corporate is now ready to provide hot backup PCs for ALL the facilities to avoid this happening again. They want the quickest, most painless recovery system that any non-techie could accomplish.

My thought is volume shadowing with a spare PC available. HD crashes, run off the other one. PC crashes, swap the HD to the spare PC. They want this to be automatic so Norton Ghosting isn't really an option nor is a Raid5 server storing the applications as the OS, application software, drivers and configurations would have to be rebuilt and that's where they struggle.

Basically, the system has to have realtime backups that can be put into service at a moment's notice with minimal downtime and preferably no software steps involved.

Suggestions?

TConnolly · Sep 17, 2009

If its that critical then two PCs running two seperate but identical RSView32 apps networked to the same PLC seems to me to be an easy solution. Cost: 1 RSView runtime + a PC.

robertmee · Sep 17, 2009

Alaric said:
If its that critical then two PCs running two seperate but identical RSView32 apps networked to the same PLC seems to me to be an easy solution. Cost: 1 RSView runtime + a PC.

Can't do that as the apps are dynamically recording values as well as hold repositories of recipe databases that frequently change. Unless the apps were all rewrote to run off a central server database, I don't think that's a viable solution. Also, this needs to be a cross platform solution. Not just RSView32, but the myriad of applications that are out there running and are mission critical. Whether that be Wonderware, RSView32, SE, Citech or custom VB/Acess stuff.

griff199 · Sep 17, 2009

If you put the "data" including the recipes and everything that does change frequently on a RAID 1 separated from the OS and the software (the stuff that doesn't change frequently) on another RAID 1 that's backed up regularly you are in pretty good shape. But this requires a computer or a desk where all these drives can live, and if we are talking panel-mount computers...sometimes that's not a good option either.

robertmee · Sep 17, 2009

griff199 said:
If you put the "data" including the recipes and everything that does change frequently on a RAID 1 separated from the OS and the software (the stuff that doesn't change frequently) on another RAID 1 that's backed up regularly you are in pretty good shape. But this requires a computer or a desk where all these drives can live, and if we are talking panel-mount computers...sometimes that's not a good option either.

Most all are industrial mount monitors using Cat5 KVM extenders to centralized PCs whether they be in a control room, or engineering office. I was thinking a RAID 1 controller would be the way to go. Set up RAID 1 to mirror both the app and OS. In the case of a PC motherboard crash, you'd have to insure that there's a comparable PC spare sans drives available, which shouldn't be a huge expense.

Question...In Raid 1 (Mirror) do Rockwell licenses work on the mirrored drive? I would assume so, but not leaving anything to chance.

Also, anyone have specific experience with a particular RAID controller? EIDE or SATA? Internal or External setup (remember, even cracking a PC case may be a challenge).

Paullys50 · Sep 17, 2009

Factory Talk activations would have to be tied to a network card, therefore if the main drive goes down you're ok as the license file has been duplicated to the other hard drive, and still "activates" when it sees the network card. Or they have a USB hardware key that you could tie to as well.

Older style licenses should work because it is a complete duplicate image.

If they really want "the quickest, most painless recovery system that any non-techie could accomplish."....then having a spare pc with an image would be the way to go....BUT you have a dynamic recipe system...

It's been 8 years, they really should consider an "upgrade" along the lines of an actual server that maintains all of dynamic recipe information. It would not require a complete re-write of RSView32. Use AB's Factory Talk Transaction Manager (Formerly RSSQL) software to handle the data exchanges rather then the RSView32 app. I take it RSView has VBA that handles the db connection and read/writes to the tags and db? If so, you'll already know how slow/inefficient RSView32 is at doing that, updating it to Transaction Manager would substantially speed up the process of reading/writing to the db and allow you to have a single PC back up for all of your stations that would simply be plug and play.

Granted there would be some development and hardware costs in migrating to Transaction Manager but the reality the benefits far outweigh the costs.

EDIT: Transaction Manager can work with any opc server, so using this application for recipe control would work across the board.

griff199 · Sep 18, 2009

robertmee: I don't have any recent relevant experience. The last time I was in an environment where we put a lot of thought into this, it was SCSI and Solaris 9 soft-RAID, which was bulletproof and still running 8 years later. Lately we've just been ordering computers with RAID onboard mb from Dell typically.

One item that gets overlooked often is that many consumer drives are not actually rated for the 24/7 use that they usually get in our world. Look for something with a longer warranty that specifically addresses 24/7 use. WD Raptor claims "near-SCSI" reliability.

robertmee · Sep 18, 2009

Paully's5.0 said:
Factory Talk activations would have to be tied to a network card, therefore if the main drive goes down you're ok as the license file has been duplicated to the other hard drive, and still "activates" when it sees the network card. Or they have a USB hardware key that you could tie to as well.

Older style licenses should work because it is a complete duplicate image.

If they really want "the quickest, most painless recovery system that any non-techie could accomplish."....then having a spare pc with an image would be the way to go....BUT you have a dynamic recipe system...

It's been 8 years, they really should consider an "upgrade" along the lines of an actual server that maintains all of dynamic recipe information. It would not require a complete re-write of RSView32. Use AB's Factory Talk Transaction Manager (Formerly RSSQL) software to handle the data exchanges rather then the RSView32 app. I take it RSView has VBA that handles the db connection and read/writes to the tags and db? If so, you'll already know how slow/inefficient RSView32 is at doing that, updating it to Transaction Manager would substantially speed up the process of reading/writing to the db and allow you to have a single PC back up for all of your stations that would simply be plug and play.

Granted there would be some development and hardware costs in migrating to Transaction Manager but the reality the benefits far outweigh the costs.

EDIT: Transaction Manager can work with any opc server, so using this application for recipe control would work across the board.

Paully, I appreciate your thoughts. My concerns with your solution is adding another layer of software to keep licensed, updated, operational, etc. as well as another PC (server) to maintain. Keep in mind, these facilities have limited support and offsite IT support that mainly focuses on the business units and leaves the production units to perish (weird sense of priorities there).

JesperMP · Sep 18, 2009

To me it sounds as you need a SCADA with redundancy built-in.
It is many years since I worked with RSView32, but I dont think it has redundancy in its core.

Maybe you need RSView SE.

If you can look outside AB/Rockwell, then it could be a perfect job for a redundant installation of IA's FactorySQL + FactoryPMI.

The Plc Kid · Sep 18, 2009

robertmee said:
Most all are industrial mount monitors using Cat5 KVM extenders to centralized PCs whether they be in a control room, or engineering office. I was thinking a RAID 1 controller would be the way to go. Set up RAID 1 to mirror both the app and OS. In the case of a PC motherboard crash, you'd have to insure that there's a comparable PC spare sans drives available, which shouldn't be a huge expense.

Question...In Raid 1 (Mirror) do Rockwell licenses work on the mirrored drive? I would assume so, but not leaving anything to chance.

Also, anyone have specific experience with a particular RAID controller? EIDE or SATA? Internal or External setup (remember, even cracking a PC case may be a challenge).

The rockwell activations could be locked to a dongle which would work on the mirror drive.

The Plc Kid · Sep 18, 2009

This http://www.oldi.com/xcoupler_index.htm is a better option to get your recipe data to a network storage location that can be mirror to 2 pc's / servers with raid which gives real redundancy.

For taking constant automated images of server or desktop hard drives use this http://www.storagecraft.com/shadow_protect_server.php

To ensure the images stay clean and the way you set them store data on a second mirror drive seperate from the OS and use this http://www.faronics.com/html/DFServer.asp to restore the os drive in case of data corruption and have the os on a mirror drive setup also.

More redundany would be a redundant plc with another xcoupler module.

Bullet proof

Quick change removable hard drives are and option also.

With deep freeze the system will always return to it's exact original state on reboot which keeps the pc clean and running smooth.This will fix anything that anyone has done even viruses and windows self creating problems.

As others have said rs view se distributed has built in redundancy you can have 2 versaview or any other panel pc and both be setup as server/client both with identical data that is constantly copying to a NAS which is redundant also.

sandwich · Sep 20, 2009

Could make a disaster recovery document that spells out exactly how to backup and recover the system. Training the end users to do it themselves would probably offer the highest level of comfort. Other then that a dongle usb and spare hard drive ready to go. Remote desktop?

sapoleon · Sep 21, 2009

Hi,
What about a virtual environment?
I don't remember who send me this link like a year and a half ago, I couldn't try it, but it seems an excellent solution. You take an image of what you are working now, and make it a VM. Then you can use something like this.
http://www.marathontechnologies.com/about.html

Maybe you tell me after how it goes...

The Plc Kid · Sep 21, 2009

As alaric stated 2 pc's or servers both running rs view would be the cheapest and easiest solution.

As for imaging if you use the shadow protect products i posted earlier then the image can be opened and ran in vmware player or modified in vm ware workstation.

The Plc Kid · Sep 21, 2009

Here is a document of rs view redundany practices. It is geared towards SE but 32 should use the same methodology.

Dynamic - Hot Swappable PCs

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