Is it me.....

[RANT ON]

Or are there some people that really shouldn't be messing with PLCs? If I go to a surgeon, I don't want him asking what's a scalpel on an online medical forum. I'm all for trying to help everyone and I try to answer way more questions than I ask, but it seems lately that there are too many threads where even the most basic fundamentals aren't understood.

I don't put all the blame on the individuals here seeking help, although I do wonder why they haven't cracked a book or read the help or tried an online tutorial in preparation of their questions. I do put a fair amount of blame on management, forcing those that are untrained and unprepared into doing a job because they want to save a penny. But when we are talking about controllers that have the ability of affecting life and limb, I just don't understand it sometimes.

I'll continue to help the best I can, but I would really like to hear from the viewpoint of some of those that are clearly lost as to what the pressures are that they are experiencing. I'm hoping it's not just laziness that they come here seeking a quick fix.

Am I wrong here and being too callous?

[/RANT OFF]

I share your concern. I was looking at these safety controllers that supposedly wont let you program something unsafe. What a lot of nonsense I managed to program an Estop in parallel with a light guard and a push button. Luckily I was mucking round in the workshop.

I was asked by a company to help with a PLC program. This company primarily do robotics they had wired the light guard to a safety relay then the relay to the PLC along with the estop on the last input not even hard wired and they wanted to know why i didn't want anything to do with the job!!! It is concerning. Nice to let off a bit of steam but I do agree with you. Also most questions have not been searched before posting.

rigicon said:

I share your concern. I was looking at these safety controllers that supposedly wont let you program something unsafe. What a lot of nonsense I managed to program an Estop in parallel with a light guard and a push button.

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I've only seen a PILZ PLC and yes, you could free program whatever you wanted BUT the safety aspects are supposed to use pre programmed safety blocks.

robertmee said:

[RANT ON]

Or are there some people that really shouldn't be messing with PLCs? If I go to a surgeon, I don't want him asking what's a scalpel on an online medical forum. I'm all for trying to help everyone and I try to answer way more questions than I ask, but it seems lately that there are too many threads where even the most basic fundamentals aren't understood.

I don't put all the blame on the individuals here seeking help, although I do wonder why they haven't cracked a book or read the help or tried an online tutorial in preparation of their questions. I do put a fair amount of blame on management, forcing those that are untrained and unprepared into doing a job because they want to save a penny. But when we are talking about controllers that have the ability of affecting life and limb, I just don't understand it sometimes.

I'll continue to help the best I can, but I would really like to hear from the viewpoint of some of those that are clearly lost as to what the pressures are that they are experiencing. I'm hoping it's not just laziness that they come here seeking a quick fix.

Am I wrong here and being too callous?
[/RANT OFF]

Click to expand...

I find the questions
"I'm building a rocket to go to moon. Send me design drawings"
very irritating.

This site was a mainstay after I fired my incompetent instructor (myself - trying to learn at home) and got myself a qualified curriculum and instructor at a community college.
I am still learning from lots of people here and will continue to do so.

It is hard to ask a decent question seeking knowledge while you are at a stage of complete ignorance.

I think Melores information should be more dramatically advertised - it was a good starting manual. After that I had difficulty finding a good PLC 101 book but succeeded with help from local library. I agree many do not take the time to study and try to learn on own.

The trouble with these damn learning curves is they take too much time - especially so with management who are slaves to the Production God and want it NOW CHEAP and 100% RELIABLE. So what is a poor guy who has this dumped in his lap needs to learn about it, sweating his job to do?

Dan Bentler

I totally understand the requests from maintenance guys who get a PLC dumped in their laps. It's just the way a lot of companies are run. Some are run well, others not so well.

What is distressing to me are the forum requests for incredibly basic information from what are clearly contract designers who have gotten a contract but the guy posting hasn't a clue about how to proceed with a design.

I catch most of those that are Modbus related because those are the posts that I tend to read (not this forum as much as a couple others). I dread that I might have to deal with this guy's junk programming because he didn't have a clue as to what the protocol was supposed to accomplish and I'm stuck with his V1.0 release that isn't half way up the learning curve yet.

Dan

I understand the rant. I too have crossed paths with people who have no clue on something and want a solution. I'm all for learning, but putting someone in a responsible position without the necessary training is pure incompetence on the part of management ... as well as the person who has accepted the responsibility.

Our department has training courses that must completed ... even for seasoned individuals.

The biggest irritant to me is someone who has not attempted helping themselves and expect answers. I personally do not expect answers, but when I need help, greatly appreciate suggestions and guidance.

Sorry, I was ranting too.

I was one of the 'Maintenance Guys' who had a PLC dumped in his lap. Fortunately, I also had the following:

I had worked with microprocessors including programming complete machine control in a 2 K ROM.

I had all the manuals for the target PLC. I could read and was willing to do just that.

I had a fairly complete description of the machine operation, though I had never actually seen one I had access to those who had worked with them and a schematic diagram of the control in pure relay ladder form.

I had time to experiment and learn.

Except for a couple specific classes I am essentially self-taught. It can be done.

Like you Bernie I am self taught. I took the role on when I worked for the UK office of a well known worldwide gate automation company. We sold standard off the shelf control boards but there was also a requirement something that could be set up for traffic control or interlinking of several pieces of equipment.

I read the manuals, played with it and when it broke I looked at why it didn't work how I expected. The only classroom time spent was on learning IEC61131-3 at a manufacturer.

The problem is in todays society, it is all too easy to look something up on the web, and invariably if it is a plc related search PLCS.net will come up near the top of the list. Manuals and logical thought go out of the window when people see this great resource.

I know everybody has to start somewhere, but when I did 10 years ago we didn't have the net at work, so it was all down to RTFM. Laziness seems to be killing ingenuity hard work.

Nobody knows everything, some know more than others, and it is great reading responses and getting help sometimes. It is also nice to help people even with my knowledge of a limited range of products.

Like everybody here a chill runs through me when I see 'need program for', 'someone tell me how to do' or 'urgently need'.

Every day is a school day and if you aren't learning you must be dead!

In all honesty I have been guilty in the past of asking Qs here whilst still searching for answers on t'interweb, purely because I like real answers from experienced guys at the forefront.

I started with plcs back in 1998 when I self-taught on Mitsi Fx. My first real program I wrote from scratch and squirted into a machine was in December 2008. So it's taken me 10 years of learning before I put it into real practice on a real machine! I'm only a raggeddyarsed maintenance spark as opposed to a plc.guy

The program works and is safe. Obviously in my 10 years of "training" I've been on courses for Mitsi and Siemens so have made up theoretical programs and modified and converted real world programs.

I've never been assessed on my real world plc competency! Who would assess me?

I think I have it. Hire Tech from overseas who will work for next to nothing to replace overpriced local guy. Tech uses this forum to get answer from local guy for free.

I am 20 and have studied PLC's at TAFE giving me a diploma in engineering. I myself have been here asking the most basic of PLC questions, and I'm technically "trained". I never touched on anything but ladder logic and had never learnt about the accumulator, or pointers or anything more than how to set up a few timers and counters which I had already self taught. Not always can all the blame be put on management, now working with PLC's quite often I feel that the training I have done wasn't good enough.

Not saying anyone here is wrong with their concerns. I'm just saying its not necessarily the fault of either management or the maintainance guy.

With gracious nods towards the regulars here, Phil and Ron B, I (as always, snarky and rude) just have to say that even the best, most focused, intense, soup-to-nuts all inclusive training in the world is completely useless if the student is lazy.

That is what the situation seems to be, and it's been getting worse and worse over the past decade. It isn't just here, on this forum, but on other forums I participate in.. Even Usenet! Honestly, I'm amazed some of these people can find there way to Usenet discussion groups, but they manage to. Heck, I even see them on gaming forums for online games that I play.

Always the same... "Give me info on XXX right now" as a one-liner. Or simply copy-pasting homework problems into a forum, with a wonderful thread subject like "HELPPP MEEEEE!!!!!!".

Then you google the username, and see they've cross spammed the same bloody thing across multiple boards. Seems that more and more 'young people' are relying on the internet to just hand them every crumb, without they themselves even trying in the slightest to research and understand problems and solutions.

Several years ago, there was a horrible (as in just plain bad) movie about society degrading and falling into a pit of universal stupidity. At the time, I thought the premise was far-fetched, but right now? I am worried I might live to see the day...

rdrast said:

. . .Several years ago, there was a horrible (as in just plain bad) movie about society degrading and falling into a pit of universal stupidity. . .

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The movie was stupid, but I loved it for it's satire...

Idiocracy

This problem has been addressed before, with no one clear answer.

I myself have come into plcs from a maintenance perspective having attended several manufacturers courses and college training.

I had a former manager - with a merchant Navy background - who insisted "You only needed to think logically to understand plcs". He went on a basic Omron course and changed his mind!!!

I have noticed a few questions lately, that when deciphered actually say "I've been given a machine to program and haven't got a clue where to start". They are normally from somewhere where labour is "Cheaper"!