Fuji Bit Types...

Eric Nelson · Oct 16, 2003

I'm updating the controls on an old Nissei molding machine. It has an ancient Fuji PLC but, believe it or not, I DO HAVE a printout of the program!...

I'm hoping someone here may be familiar with the different types of bits Fuji uses. First off, here's the PLC I'm talking about...
[attachment]
Anybody want it when I'm done?... I didn't think so...

I've got the I/O and internal bits figured out, but the rest of them haven't 'clicked' in my brain just yet, although I've only been at it a few hours. Here's a portion of the actual ladder which will help with my questions:



     |   MANUAL    NOZ FW    V11A      LM CL     SCREW     CHG AL    NOZ FW    NOZ FW    NOZ BW    NOZ BW            |

     |   B0000     B0008     B0052     S11.04    B000D     M0063     S15.02    S15.03    S15.07    S15.08            |

0001 |----] [-------] [-------] [---+---] [-------] [-------]/[-------]/[-------]/[-------]/[-------]/[---------> 1  |

     |                       (0061) |  (0011)              (0097)    (0015)    (0015)    (0015)    (0015)            |

     |   S.AUTO                     |                                                                                |

     |   B0001                      |                                                                                |

     |----] [-----------------------+                                                                                |

     |                                                                                                               |

     |             NOZ BW    FLASH                                                                                   |

     |             S15.09    B001F                                                                           S15.01  |

0002 |   1 >--------]/[-------] [-----------------------------------------------, '-----------------------------(SC)-|

     |             (0015)                                                                                            |

     |   NOZ FW    MANUAL                                                                          NOZ FW            |

     |   T0040     B0000                                                                           S15.01    S15.02  |

0003 |----]/[-------]/[-----------------------------------------------------------------------------] [---------(SC)-|

     |   (0015)                                                                                    (0015)            |

     |   NOZ FW    S.AUTO                                                                          NOZ FW            |

     |   B002C     B0001                                                                           S15.02    S15.03  |

0004 |----] [-------] [-----------------------------------------------------------------------------] [---------(SC)-|

     |                                                                                             (0015)            |

     |             S.AUTO                                                                          NOZ FW            |

     |   T0044     B0001     B000D     S15.08    S15.09                                            S15.03    S15.07  |

0005 |----] [-------] [---+---] [-------]/[-------]/[-------------------------------------------+---] [---+-----(SC)-|

     |   (0018)           |                                                                     |  (0015) |          |

     |   NOZ BW    MANUAL |                                                                     |  MANUAL |          |

     |   B0009     B0000  |                                                                     |  B0000  |          |

     |----] [-------] [---+                                                                     +---] [---+          |

     |                                                                                                               |

     |   NOZ BW    MANUAL                                                                          NOZ BW            |

     |   T0002     B0000                                                                           S15.07    S15.08  |

0006 |----]/[-------]/[---------------------------------------------------------, '-----------------] [---------(SC)-|

     |   (0015)                                                                                    (0015)            |

     |   NOZ.BW    S.AUTO                                                                          NOZ BW            |

     |   B0026     B0001                                                                           S15.08    S15.09  |

0007 |----] [-------]/[-----------------------------------------------------------------------------] [---------(SC)-|

     |                                                                                             (0015)            |

     |   NOZ FW                                                                                                      |

     |   S15.01                                                                                    T0040             |

0008 |----] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[ TON            ]-|

     |   (0015)                                                                                                      |

     |   NOZ BW                                                                                                      |

     |   S15.07                                                                                    T0002             |

0009 |----] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[ TON            ]-|

     |   (0015)                                                                                                      |

     |   NOZ FW    NOZ BW    MANUAL                                                                                  |

     |   B0008     B0009     B0000                                                                           S15.99  |

0010 |----]/[-------]/[-------] [---+---------------------------------------------------------------------------(SC)-|

     |                              |                                                                                |

     |   RESET     RESET            |                                                                                |

     |   M0002     M0003            |                                                                                |

     |----]/[-------]/[-------, '---+                                                                                |

OK, so what are the "S" bits? They seem to be some sort of sequencer, but I'm not sure. Anything like stage programming? IOW, when the "SC" instruction executes, can I assume that the next 15.nn bit turns ON, and the previous 15.nn bit turns OFF? Is there any significance to the 15.99 bit? There are a handful of rungs grouped similar to this (10.nn, 11.nn, etc.) elsewhere in the program.

Anyone have a clue what the numbers in parenthesis below some of the instructions means? Could it be just the 'current value' when this was printed?...

Also notice the breaks in the ladder on rungs 3, 6, and the lower branch of 10. Any significance to these, or the fact that some contacts are positioned on the output (right) side of the rung?

There are a few ---(^) instructions elsewhere in the program that use "D" bits. It seems like they're just differential intructions (i.e DIFU, OSR, PD, etc.), but since they use "D" bits, I wasn't sure.

As I said, I've just begun this project, so I may answer some of my own questions as I dig deeper. I just thought someone may be able to save me some aggravation... banghead

Any info on 'special purpose' bits would be greatly appreciated. You know, first scan, internal clocks, normally on/off bits, etc... :nodi:

beerchug

-Eric

PLucas · Oct 16, 2003

Eric

If memory serves me correctly (which it did) Dale1627 uses Fuji PLC's, so it might be worth sending him a PM or hoping that he replies to this post.

Here is a link to the Fuji download page you can download the manuals for their PLC's here, though I don't think they list your particular model.

That might be some help to you.

Good luck

Paul

Eric Nelson · Oct 16, 2003

Thanks Paul. I found that download page but didn't bother with those manuals because they're for 'new' PLCs.

Although, now that you brought it up, there's always the possibility that some of the old stuff migrated to the new stuff, so therefore I'm currently downloading those manuals!

beerchug

-Eric

Eric Nelson · Oct 16, 2003

Or maybe I'm NOT!

You need a password to download the manual...

Password protect the SOFTWARE guys, NOT the freakin' manuals!... mddr

Oh well...

beerchug

-Eric

PLucas · Oct 16, 2003

Password

Eric

I did see that a password is required, there is a link halfway down the page to get a password, but as this is only open to American customers I could go no further.

Did you see that link?

Paul

Tim · Oct 16, 2003

Eric,
I beleive I got the manuals for this at work. I will check it out tommorow.
Tim

Eric Nelson · Oct 17, 2003

No Paul, of course I didn't see the link...

I filled out their "Give us your info so we can pester you with junk mail and sales calls" questionnaire to get the 'super secret' password. Now I have to wait and see just when (if?) they will send me a password. It doesn't say HOW I will receive it. Nothing in my email yet...

I sit here with fingers crossed in hopes that Tim will find those manuals...

In the meantime, I stumbled into some MORE questions.

"F" bits, specifically F0002. Looks like a 'first scan' bit?

"K" bits. Retentive bits maybe?

"A" bits. Seems like some kind of alarm handler.

I may not care about the "A" bits, as this PLC has an external 4-digit fault display with a timer setting device. It looks like the second half of the program handles the interaction with this display, which I'm not concerned with. That's good, because then I won't need to figure out their word manipulation instructions...

Off the subject a bit, but part of this project, is an HMI. I'd normally throw a touchscreen at a project like this, but this customer has not had good luck with touchscreens in their facility. They would like a graphic display, but with a seperate keypad. I'd like to find something along the lines of a PanelView that has a row of 5 or 6 buttons under the screen for navigation, then the standard numeric keypad and cursor movement controls. A 6" screen will be more than adequate. Color is preferable, but grayscale is OK too.

A PanelView is out or the running since I'll be using a DL450 PLC, and A-B won't talk to anything but an A-B. If anyone knows of a display along these lines, please let me know. Preferably something with software that doesn't take a year to learn...

beerchug

-Eric

Waleye · Oct 17, 2003

Eric,
Not sure why the customer has bad luck with displays. When I run across this, I just mention ease of use and price reduction as wiring is reduced. That usually gets their attention. I've done lots of molding machines with touch screens with no problems. however I do keep 1 or 2 in stock just in case. I buy all my hardware/sw from Automation Direct.

Can't help you on the bit deal though. I just start from scratch when doing a new machine. Nissei has some different logic ideas than most.

Good Luck

Walt

Waleye · Oct 17, 2003

Eric,
Forgot to ask...what year and model is this machine? Most I've run across have Mitsi in them. Was this a special order or something? Just curious.

Walt

David_Emmerich · Oct 17, 2003

Hi Eric... You must have a NEW machine, the dinosaurs I had when I came down here were all Hard wired relay logic, with lots of oil soaked CR's. If I can help with proof reading Sequence of operations, just ask.

In looking at the ladder you posted, could it be that they are just calling out card locations? Thats the way they did it on their relay ladders...relay number,deck number,contact number.It would seem to make sense that they would contine the practice so as to not confuse the plant maintainence personel. You know how set in their ways they can be!

I do have a contact in the Niessi org, I'll send him an email latter tonite.Have fun!!!
David

beerchug beerchug beerchug

David_Emmerich · Oct 17, 2003

Salut Eric... vous devez avoir une NOUVELLE machine, les dinosaures j'avais quand je suis descendu voici toute logique de relais télégraphiée Dure, avec beaucoup de pétrole est trempé CR. Si je peux aider avec la preuve lisant la Séquence d'opérations, seulement demander. Dans regarder l'échelle que vous avez posté, ce pourrait être qu'ils sont seulement appelant hors les emplacements de carte? Que la façon ils l'ont fait sur leur numéro de relais d'échelles...de relais, le numéro de pont, numérote.il de contact semblerait faire le sens qu'ils feraient contine que la pratique pour ne pas pour confondre la plante maintainence personel. Vous savez la série dans leurs façons qu'ils peuvent être! J'ai un contact dans le Niessi org, je l'enverrai un e-mail tonite dernier s'amuse!!
David

Eric Nelson · Oct 17, 2003

OK David, what's with the French?...

I think I missed an important word here. It's a BLOW molding machine (PET bottles). This picture of the operator controls may shed some light...
[attachment]
I've got 13 years in injection molding, but this blow molding is kinda new to me. The injection (barrel) end is identical to an IMM, so I think once I translate the logic sequence for injection, I can use that knowledge to extract the clamp and table sequences. It actually looks quite straightforward now that I've had time to study it.

I'm simply using the existing logic as a starting point when I sit down to write a new program from scratch. No need to 'guess' when I have logic that worked on this machine at one time. I can also avoid overlooking something important! Stuff like 'Stretch Rods' and 'Hook Pins' are new terms in my vocabulary...

You're right about the Mitsubishi's Walt. We had a bunch of Nisseis at my old job (150-500 ton) and ALL had Mitsubishi PLCs. I don't know the era of this machine. All I know is that it came out of Mexico. The story is that this machine was originally bought new as a 'spare parts' machine. I guess it's hard to get spare parts in Mexico? It only has 8000 hours on it, but it's pretty well stripped of relays, switches, and whatever else they needed to keep other machines running...

This customer has about 8 more newer Nissei blow molders, but these too have Fuji PLCs. Perhaps Nissei's blow molding division went with Fuji, while the IMM division chose Mitsubishi? There's another identical Nissei blow molder that I have to re-control next, but that one has GE controls. A total of FIVE 90-30 racks scattered throughout the machine! One for injection, one for the clamp/table, two for all the heating zones, and one to oversee the process. Just a previous re-control job, done by someone else. Now it's my turn... :nodi:

beerchug

-Eric

P.S. Still no password from Fuji...

panic mode · Oct 17, 2003

Hi Eric,

I support your effort to revive the dinosaur but did you maybe
try to convince customer to move to newer PLC, something that
could be easier to support etc.? (just an idea...)

Eric Nelson · Oct 17, 2003

panic mode said:
Hi Eric,

I support your effort to revive the dinosaur but did you maybe
try to convince customer to move to newer PLC, something that
could be easier to support etc.? (just an idea...)

Sorry panic, I guess I wasn't clear... That IS what I'm doing. New PLC, new HMI, new program. The Fuji is going in the trash...

I'm just picking through what already exists since, at one time, it DID function... :nodi:

beerchug

-Eric

Tim · Oct 17, 2003

Eric,
Ok I'm going to go one step at a time.
The "S" bits are called step control relays. SC "Step control"
Definition: This internal relay is used to control the sequence of process steps. It consist of a set of 100 steps (with step numbers 0 to 99) and has contact coils corresponding to the step numbers.
Ok eric, I could explain this in detail, but is there any way I can fax this stuff to you tommorrow.
Tim

Fuji Bit Types...

Eric Nelson

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PLucas

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Eric Nelson

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panic mode

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