UL 508 Rant

I have to write this to keep my head from exploding.

We use UL-508 approved surge suppressors/noise filters on the 120 VAC feed to our panels. We have been using the same one for several years, and have passed UL-508 on many panels with this device.

The manufacturer was recently purchased by another company. UL has removed the particular part from their web site. We had a bunch of these things in stock.

Our mindless minion of a UL inspector has just refused to approve a panel because he can't find it on the web site. This is an identical component to one in a panel the same idiot approved last week! We have the paperwork on the item from previous trips to la-la land with this guy, and of course the stickers and labelling are on the product. However, use of logic is not in this guy's job description, and he is effectively insisting that we throw out our inventory and use a new device.

This same cretin made us jump through hoops for an Ethernet cable in the same panel. Never mind that the UL markings were on the jacket indicating it was an approved Ethernet cable, and the ports on both ends show Ethernet, and he approved the same thing last week. We had to get the voltage levels on the Ethernet signal and get information from the cable supplier to document that the insulation would handle the voltage.

UL is getting out of hand. Is there something we can do as "customers" of this "non-profit" organization to get them back into some semblance of reality? Form a union, write petitions, get NEMA involved, anything? I'm a firm believer in safety, but UL as an organization seems to contribute very little in enhanced safety and extracts a tremendous burden in dollars, time, and brainpower.

I feel your pain. UL, its minions, and its certifications are essentially useless anyway, except for the mythology surrounding it all.

Insurance companies like to see "UL Approval" on panels, even though the sticker means, well, nothing, except some poor guy slaved over it for compliance, or just broke down and paid the bribe.

UL is one of the many modern incarnations of
Cthulhu

Good vent I feel better already1

From a logical point (OK I'm OT already), if the manufacturer lost there UL labeling at some point, but you still have product with a UL or recognized label, then you should be good.
The hell with the website. Your UL minion is truly an idiot. Unless he would like to buy out your inventory

Insurance companies like to see "UL Approval" on panels, even though the sticker means, well, nothing

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How true. Spot on comment

Man, I'm glad I don't have your inspector.

I have three letters for you: ETL

You just may want to give them a call and see what they can do for you. I have never used them but it can't hurt to find out if your customers will accept their mark. There is nothing written in law anywhere that says UL is the only Nationally Recognized Testing Lab... Several exist mostly as nitch players but it seems ETL is really trying to punch a hole in the UL strangle hold on testing.
http://www.etl.com/

Would serve them right for getting too big for their britches.

Is there an appeals proceedure?

ETL would be an option, but the specs we bid to specifically call for UL-508.

I don't know if there is a formal appeals procedure, but if I find out I'll post it here.

Good news, though. The supervisor of the panel shop asked the inspector for his boss' name - it was my intent to find out if there is an appeals procedure or at least raise some cane. The inspector may not be quite as dumb as I previously thought - we just got the following by email:

"I looked in the section and verified the component. This section was withdrawn on 10/2009, FYI. I will stop by tomorrow morning to release the labels."

UL is like so many things. Take a good idea and run it slap into the ground. I used to really apriciate UL but now I consider it such an anoyance.

We now describe our panels as consisting of UL listed componets. If a customer requires the panel itself to be stamped then we charge extra. Most are fine with the UL Listed componets.

Even with the extra charge we only break even when you figure in the extra costs and time.

What suprises me is we only end up doing 2 or 3 UL panels a year. Most customers do not care.

What are the laws in the USA regarding approvals.

In Canada, we cannot install any equipment until it has been approved by an inspection agency (CSA, UL, Ect.)

controlled said:

What are the laws in the USA regarding approvals.

In Canada, we cannot install any equipment until it has been approved by an inspection agency (CSA, UL, Ect.)

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It is based on local rules. Those rules tend to follow the National Electric Code. You do not have to specifically have a UL inspected panel. The kicker is that alot of insurance underwriters will not insure the machine without the panel being UL approved. Other just require that the componets be UL Listed.

Originally posted by Clay B.:

You do not have to specifically have a UL inspected panel.

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This is generally true in the U.S. There are some specific exceptions, however. For example, the cities of Minneapolis, Chicago and Los Angeles require UL approval prior to power-up. I'm sure there are others. However, as Clay B. said, it is based on local rules.

Keith

kamenges said:

This is generally true in the U.S. There are some specific exceptions, however. For example, the cities of Minneapolis, Chicago and Los Angeles require UL approval prior to power-up. I'm sure there are others. However, as Clay B. said, it is based on local rules.

Keith

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As with everything else that deals with the government it is clear as mud.

I knew about Chicago and Los Angeles but was not aware that Minneapolis had the UL panel rule. Thanks for the info...Another place I need to avoid ...

I've heard rumors that the next version of the NEC is going to require all panels be UL-508 approved. Has anyone else heard similar rumors?

To some extent it doesn't matter in the wastewater industry. Teh consulting engineers that write the spec don't really know what UL-508 means, but it is a nice way for them to avoid responsibility so most of them now have the requirement in their shelf specs.

We just ran into Minneapolis ourselves. Had you asked me last year I would have said they weren't affected. Maybe theay aren't and our customer is just pulling my chain. I didn't check into it myself. I just believed my customer.

Keith

One of our customers told us that it is the entire state of Minnisota. They ship all over the country so we 508 all their panels. Most other customers don't care but specific industries will definately vary.

I have not heard about NEC requiring 508. Probably the best possible thing is if they duplicate the requirements without mentioning UL. that is sort of what happened with the SCCR ratings in the last NEC revision. Then other testing labs and certification companies would not be unduly discriminated against by having the UL name in the NEC. But, based on history, I don't think the AHJ's will move away from UL any time soon.

Tom - check your PM's on this site.