Underfloor Heat

Join Date
Dec 2007
Location
Los Angeles CA
Posts
53
Hey Guys,

I would appreciate your opinion on this.

I have a DirectLogic PLC and I want to control the heat with a PID Loop. Does any one have any suggestions on how to accomplish while still being title 24 compliant?

Thanks in advance!
 
Before anyone can help, you'll have to explain what Title 24 is and how it applies to underfloor heat.

What exactly do you want to control with a PID loop - water loop temperature, room air temperature? Most heating systems work on an on/off basis, although I can see where you would want to adjust setpoints based on time of day or outdoor air temperature.
 
I'm assuming he means this Title 24.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/

If it requires some sort of certification, then I don't think something you build yourself would qualify (unless you go out and get it tested/certified).



On an unrelated note, I am glad I don't live in California. ;)
 
One thing you will want to keep in mind - on many hardwood floors you do not want your radiant heat to heat floor over 85 if I recall correct. Can lead to shrinkage and gaps in flooring.

Radiant heat is generally done by a slow and steady heat input ie turn pump on and leave it alone. I dont see how PID is a good control application.

I agree with previous comments you need to tell us more about system and why you think PID will fit in as a control algorythm.

PLC makes sense though you can add timing to zone control, control boiler temp based on outside temp, control intake exhaust fans based on CO2 level etc etc.

Dan Bentler
 
What's your heat source that is so over-capacity that you want to throttle it back proportionally to maintain flat line temperature?

Are you able to conserve that unused-at-the-moment heat for later use?

Is there something about flat line floor temperature that I'm unaware of? The bottoms of my bare feet probably can't tell the 2°F hysteresis difference that on-off thermostatic control would produce.

Dan
 
Sounds to me like it's more of a "fun at home project" than anything with such a deep reasoning behind it.

I thought about taking a DL05 or 06 home with me and setting up an automatic control for the duct work on my central air. To try and help solve the cold bedrooms when the dining room (where the thermostat is located) heats up from the kitchen being used.
 
Sounds to me like it's more of a "fun at home project" than anything with such a deep reasoning behind it.

I thought about taking a DL05 or 06 home with me and setting up an automatic control for the duct work on my central air. To try and help solve the cold bedrooms when the dining room (where the thermostat is located) heats up from the kitchen being used.

I have done that with a 105 I had it on the shelf. Work great except 24VAC. The best thing to help hot spots, is proper duct design, next is cycling the fan inbetween calls for conditioning.

My stat cost me $300 USD dealer cost. I has an outside sensing bulb , humidity, zone control, etc. Less than a 1 year ROI over a standard non programmable. Plus the energy cost increased 11%. The two best features are circulate, the the outdoor temp adjust for time setpoints.

I have a infloor heaing system in the garage. I haven't spent the money for a modulating boilder yet. When I do add the boiler I was also thinking of a PLC for temerature control. I made 3 thermowells for my type J thermocouples. I plan to use them for zone control along with slab overheat detection. The additional Thermocouple channels are going to be ambient air sensors for the cooling unit, circulating fans, high temp indication, or rapid change in temp. (FIRE) alarms.

Listen to Dan floor temps. going to high will cause a lot of problems.
We need more information on you system before we can help you.
 
Jeff, what kind of thermostat did you get that has the circulate function?

Many forced air heating units have a switch often called summer winter. In summer it lets the blower run without turning on the heat. This switch is located inside the panel but you may be able to extend it to another location more convenient.

Dan Bentler
 
I run the HVAC in my house with a PLC. I have saved a ton of money on both the heating and cooling side when I changed over from tradional thermostats. Plus the house a a lot more comfortable.

I control with some RTD's to do the temp measurements and a simple on/off differential on each side of the set point. By watching the outside temp to see if it is rising or falling and checking the internal temp I decide when to auto-changeover from heat to cool. Also I precool the upstairs based on the outside temp so the AC doesn't have to work as hard later in the day during the high heat. I also have a fan only stir mode that comes on when the heat or cool hasn't kicked on in a while to move the air around.

It's way overkill at the moment, but I have a plan for that in a few more months. :)
 
Many forced air heating units have a switch often called summer winter. In summer it lets the blower run without turning on the heat. This switch is located inside the panel but you may be able to extend it to another location more convenient.

Dan Bentler
Thanks, Dan, but I was curious if there commercially exists a t-stat that would circulate the air every once in awhile without turning on the AC compressor. My current thermostat has a Fan Auto or On switch, but the thermostat is not located convenient to turning on when located elsewhere in the house.
 
Jeff, what kind of thermostat did you get that has the circulate function?

Honeywell Vision Pro. There are a few others out there doind that. I have used a timimg relay set to run for 3 min. every 15 min. Does it make any difference to have the fan cycle every 15 or only after 15 min of non run time? I don't know.
 
I have had three different programmable t-stats in my last three houses, and they all sucked in some big way. They were cheap, but did save because of the timers.

None of them offer the flexibility that we as PLC guys are accustomed to.

Why not be able to schedule on any repeating period any sequence of up to 128 steps? And in each step set a cooling setpoint, a heating setpoint, a fan command, outside damper signal, let's see what else can we stick in here?

In OkieLand (the land of bugs, weeds, and toll roads, heat waves, hail blizzards, droughts, tornadoes and floods), there are at least 3 or four days a year when you need to heat and cool in the same day, or you or your loved ones are going to suffer.

Ten years ago I worked a 12 hour rotating shift schedule that alternated between nights and days every 7 days and repeated every 28 days with a long (7-day) break. I lived alone with the kids on weekends. There was no off-the-shelf residential t-stat at that time that would accommodate that kind of schedule.

On the subject of floor heating, are we talking about heating a concrete floor with liquid via radiant heat from a copper pipe?

I have been in a shop where the guy just used a household thermostat and small water heater and a itty bitty circulation pump. He wired the pump to be triggered by the fan output of the thermostat and insulated the heater.

I think he said he kept the shop floor at about 70 degrees and it was very nice working on vehicles in the dead of winter and warmed the whole room with the doors closed. I would think that if you used a PID for the water temp, you *might* could make it more efficient, but he said it was very cheap to operate, and his water heater was set on a fixed temp.
 
On the subject of floor heating, are we talking about heating a concrete floor with liquid via radiant heat from a copper pipe?

I have been in a shop where the guy just used a household thermostat and small water heater and a itty bitty circulation pump. He wired the pump to be triggered by the fan output of the thermostat and insulated the heater.

I think he said he kept the shop floor at about 70 degrees and it was very nice working on vehicles in the dead of winter and warmed the whole room with the doors closed. I would think that if you used a PID for the water temp, you *might* could make it more efficient, but he said it was very cheap to operate, and his water heater was set on a fixed temp.
A large mass - a concrete floor and a little heater is THE classic on-off control situation.

For PID, the proportional band would have to be very narrow, (or the gain very high), with a modulating valve likely modulating over a ±0.2° range around the setpoint, any greater error would be calling for full heat, or fully off.

A solenoid valve could be time proportioned (PWM), but why cycle a time proportioned valve to death to attempt to achieve flat line control when all that's needed is a warm floor, not a floor at exactly 68.50° ± 0.2°?

On-off thermostatic control is more than adequate.
 

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