Ethical problem

So I have just returned home from a Fanuc robot advanced programming class. Before I went the plant manager said "your not going to take this class and then leave us" I had no prospects, but an opportunity has just come up. I have to let you all know that my pay right now is connected to sales. Sales have been poor for 2 years now. eg, 20k less pay. I could get a great guaranteed salary at this other place. I hate not being faithful, but I work for money. What are your thoughts on this.

If you want loyalty, get a dog...

Sorry, but I've been shafted too many times in the past with the proverbial carrot to pass up a 'bird in the hand'

Idioms and cliche's aside, will your employer present you with the same loyalty that you potentially wish to show towards them?

And how much did the robot class cost your current employer ?
If it is less than the extra 20k, then you can see that it is of less importance than the bigger question of your salary.

This is a problem I have with employers. They are more than happy to benefit from training and experience that you have gained at other employers, or on your own. However, they are not interested in paying for any training to improve their employees. In this day and age, employers show no loyalty to their employees as a general rule. However, they expect loyalty from the employees. Rather one sided I think. I presume you have given you current employer some years of faithful service.

If you have an opportunity to advance yourself and your career. Go for it.

Stu....

I've been on both sides of this.

You owe your employer a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. Nothing more. Your employer shouldn't expect you to pass up an opportunity to advance yourself and your family. When I lost a good employee to another job my attitude was always "Sad for me, glad for them".


Boswell's point has some merit. There have been times over the years that I had to let good people go. When there isn't enough money to make payroll the employer doesn't have any choice. That isn't a comment on loyalty, though, as Boswell implies. It simply reflects the old truism that you can't get blood out of a turnip.

I've had employees that worked for me for 10+ years. I tried to pay competitively, but the real reason they stayed is because they liked working for me and I liked having them. I also had some guys leave for other jobs and then come back to me. My point is, don't leave JUST for the money. Money is obviously important, but so are a good work envirionment, getting along well with the crew, and doing work you can be proud of. Consider these things before you jump.

On your initial question, I don't see an ethical issue. You took the class in good faith, and your employer offered it in part because he felt it would benefit him as well. Sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. If you decide to leave, give your employer reasonable notice, be honest about why you are moving, and don't burn any bridges. You aren't doing anything unethical by doing the best you can for yourself and your family.

I agree with Tom on this.

Also, ask yourself this question. Let's say you stayed at your present company and sales picked up to the point where they needed another person like you. Let's also say there were two qualified applicants for the position, one with the same training you went to (recently paid for by his current employer) and one who would need to be sent to it. Do you think your current employer would refuse to hire the guy who had already been to the training?

Loyalty is great when your employer wants it from you. Rarely do you get loyalty from your company when you need it. If there was a business decision made where they would have to terminate you because of money they would not hesitate, after all, business is business. Profit (Money) is the bottom line. If you have a chance to better yourself by taking your skills elsewhere, go for it.

Perhaps you can give your current employer the opportunity to match the pay offered by the new position. Then if he says no, you won't feel quite as bad about leaving, and if he says yes, it's a win-win...

OkiePC said:

Perhaps you can give your current employer the opportunity to match the pay offered by the new position. Then if he says no, you won't feel quite as bad about leaving, and if he says yes, it's a win-win...

Click to expand...

As a general rule I did not try to match an offer from another company trying to hire one of my employees. First of all, once someone has their name on the street it is only a matter of time until someone came along with an offer I couldn't match. Second, I always paid my employees what I thought was a fair wage at the top end of what I could afford. Finally, I never felt it was fair to the rest of my crew to give a raise to one employee and in effect reward that individual for putting pressure on me. In reality, some of that person's raise had to come out of the rest of the crew's pocket!

I agree with all said here previous. What a can of worms. Seems to me you have only one option
Talk to present employer lay cards on table. If he wants you bad enough he will work to keep you - there may be other perks he can do than just salary.

The other thing that comes to mind - what are your costs to move?

Dan Bentler

SMOKE said:

"your not going to take this class and then leave us"

Click to expand...

That and other day-to-day idioms are the mainstay of manipulative employers so that whey they need a weapon they can pull one out and shaft you with it.

Smoke

I don't have the years of knowledge and experience that the previous posters have but i do know from experience that at the end of the day the only person really looking out for you is you.

That must be a pretty stupid plant manager to even say something like that. To think that someone would leave just because you went to a class i mean c'mon. A lot of companies act like they are doing you a big favor by sending you to training when in essense they should be glad to send you and be proud that it was your idea and want to go on your own merits and not because they are making you go. I mean you are trying to improve your ability to repair their stuff. I mean i doubt you have any robots at home.

Too me it is kinda like giving a notice. I had an old boss give me a hard speech because i only gave him 3 days notice. I would have given hm 2 weeks if i could even though he did not deserve that courtesy but i could not. The new job needed me to start immediatly.

After he said his speech i asked him flat out " would you have given me 2 weeks notice if you were going to fire me or lay me off"

Allz i'm trying to say is at the end of the day it's about coveing your own a%& and doing whats best for you your future and your family.

I don't know that I would give a notice. My previous employer had to walk me out as soon as I told them I had accepted a job from a competing company. I guess they were afraid I could do more damage in the time it took me to work out a notice than if they went ahead and walked me out. I already had a heads up on this policy so I was prepared when I told them.

The only possible professional ethical problem I can see is if your new position offer is directly tied to your Fanuc robot class; if you received the offer there, or if the new offer is largely based on your new Fanuc skills.

If that were the case, I would offer to reimburse the company for the Fanuc class.

Otherwise, thank your employer for employing you for these years, wish them well, and give them two weeks notice.

Thanks for the replies, the new position does not even have robots. Years ago I also lost a job just because. Still they are good to me, its hard to not be a loyal dog. Also, I don't know all the detail of the new job, but I think I proceed. Thanks again.