Vacuum Control

bruceschaller

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Join Date
Feb 2011
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MA
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I have a airtight tank connected to a very strong vacuum pump (~5hp)

I want to implement a control for this system to take it from 760 TORR to .2 Torr. Here's the kicker...it needs to stop on a dime...at .2 torr, in less than 60 seconds. How would you go about this? A solenoid/betterfly valve? A variable input stream of nitrogen? P/PI/PID control?

Currently the system has the tank, an equal percentage globe valve, vacuum pump, a Control Net pressure gauge. The gauge is accurate to 2.5% of reading (hot wire type). There is no way to easily flow a constant stream of air or N2 into the process, so if i overshoot, it's no good. Right now, we're having problems with overshoot using a PID controller.

What do you think??

Control system is compact logix, and right now I'm using a PIDe control loop.
 
First off, lets make sure exactly what you are meaning by "hot wire type" gauge. "Hot wire" refers to a large class of different gauge types that rely on thermal transfer to measure low pressures.

If you are meaning a Convectron gauge then the gauge is suitable. If you are meaning a T/C or Pirani gauge then those gages won't work well above about 2 torr and are very dependent on gas mix, and the Pirani gauge won't start working until just before you reach your final pressure. As long as you understand that and don't care if the gauge tells you the truth between 760 torr and 2 torr then they will be suitable. If you are meaning a hot cathode type ion gauge then you are no were near the vacuum level where such a gage can begin to operate, most of them aren't suitable for use at pressures above 10 millitorr.

Hot wire type gauges are very non-linear and sensitive to gas type and contamination. They are difficult to scale. If your control net gauge has on board scaling then count yourself as lucky - those are relatively new to the vacuum instrumentation world.

None of these gauges respond rapidly, so hitting your sixty second mark is going to be very very difficult.

If you haven't yet purchased the gauge then I suggest you seriously consider a capacitance manometer. They are linear, gas independent, less susceptible to contamination, and are well suited to your pressure range. Capacitance manomneters also respond a lot faster than hot wire gauges. They are available with analog outputs as well as device net and control net.

Next, it is very difficult to control vacuum. Gas wets the inside surfaces of a chamber and clings to it, much like water clings to a surface. All surfaces in a chamber will outgas, so even after you reach 200 millitorr and close up all valves, chamber pressure will increase, even in a perfect world where there are no leaks. The outgassing rate can be affected by many things, including how long the chamber has been at atmospheric pressure since it was last used. Outgassing will have a large effect on your ability to control your vacuum level.

If you use a modulating valve then you have to consider how gas flows at low pressures. At 200 millitorr your pump can no longer "suck" gas out of the chamber (actually the pump doesn't suck anything but that's beyond the scope of this post). Before you reach that pressure the flow will have transitioned to a gas flow state known as molecular flow, and the only gas the pump can remove are those molecules that happen to wander deep enough into the pump foreline that the probability of it bouncing back out becomes very low. What this means is that even slight changes to the valve position have huge effects on pumping speed - making control with a PID difficult (not impossible).

Solenoid operated diaphragm valves have difficulty operating at very low pressure levels because the pressure differential across the diaphragm cannot generate enough force to lift the diaphragm and the valve closes under its own weight. Mounting it upside down can help, but then the diaphragm won't close off well at high vacuum levels. Its best to just stay away from them.

You can use a butterfly valve and modulate the valve position but expect a lot of difficulty tuning it, they don't behave under molecular flow the say way they behave they intuitively behave at higher pressures. Under molecular flow you can think of the butterfly valve as a mirror - close it even slightly and it will reflect molecular flow back into the chamber. Without a dense moving gas flow past the butterfly there is nothing to entrain gas molecules that hit the butterfly and carry them into the foreline, so they bounces back into the chamber like billiard balls.

Vacuum gate valves, ball valves, and piston valves usually don't modulate position, they are either fully open or fully closed.

The most common way I've seen is to introduce a inert sweep gas and control pressure by modulating gas in-flow. That's how we do it on our vacuum furnaces. But since you say you can't introduce a sweep gas your best chance for success may be in using two piston type valves (air operated), a large one for roughing and a fine one that is modulated on/off. As chamber pressure approaches 500 millitorr drop out the large valve, then toggle the smaller valve on/off. You may need to play with the size on an inline orifice in front of the smaller valve. At first while out-gassing the valve will need to operate on/off somewhat frequently. As time goes on it will need to operate less often. Given that your gage is accurate to only 2.5% you'll probably have better control potential than what you are measuring anyways.

You can find vacuum valves at http://www.lesker.com/newweb/menu_valves.cfm

It goes without saying that any leak will render your system uncontrollable, and it can be surprisingly difficult to find and fix some very small vacuum leaks. We cheat and use helium and a mass spectrometer. Since that is out of the question for most you need to be very careful about assembly.
 
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Alaric,

Thanks, you're right on the $$. It is a convectron gauge. How is PI/PID control accomplished? Any Pointers? Since my span is so large, I've considered taking the LN of the pv as it goes into the controller so that the error values are not so huge coming from such a high pressure as atmospheric. Also, overshoot is magnified, so it should stop sooner, finer control at pressure. Seems like a good option, since pump down (idealized) is an exponential decay function.

I was also thinking about using a solenoid valve for control, but I need to get it installed....$$ so late in the game. It's a well constructed chamber; all pipe joints welded, flanged only where required (vac pump, valve, chamber). Vac full open I get down to 23mTorr. We actually got it working at factory...but control issues have during install. Mass Spec a good idea, i used one in school for that, worked great. Gas adsorbtion was a big problem in sputtering machines with cryopumps.

Another Q, unrelated, is it possible to use a VFD with a turbo pump to accomplish control?

Gauges
http://www.ream.it/users/files.php?mode=open&file=Convectron.pdf
They claim milliseconds....but...

I will look into capacitance manometers.

Thanks!
Bruce
 
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No to VFD on Turbo. The motor is 3 phase, with a custom matched controller. Even if you could vary speed, it wouldn't work very well.

GP is the best Convectron. Use the linear version. It has a max of 1 Torr (1000 millitorr). From what I can tell, you don't need to start reading until 1 Torr anyway. Why complicate it, and loose resolution by going all the way to 760 Torr?

If that doesn't work, you need a Capacitance Manometer, best known by the brand name Baratron from MKS. We used to call them Baratrons regardless of manufacturer, until MKS complained. Now we're politically correct with Capacitance Manometer, or Capman for short. MKS is the best.
Again, go with 1 Torr max. You'll need an isolation valve for a 1 Torr unit, so it won't get stressed at atmosphere.
You'll still need the Convectron to handle the opening of the isolation valve.
My experience is with Process Chambers. When the chamber is open, water vapor condenses on the walls. Water vapor is what we're pumping below about 500 mT or so. The best chamber is Electropolished Stainless, absolutely clean. Heating walls to 100 C also helps avoid condensation.

If you can implement any of this, it will be much easier to control. The outgassing that Alaric mentioned is the water vapor.

Fast pump to 1 Torr (large valve), then switch to slow pump. Use an MFC (Mass Flow Controller) to add nitrogen to pump stack to regulate pumping speed.
It would help if we knew what the 200 millitorr limit is for. Can we backfill with Nitrogen to maintain 200 mT?
 
I definitely agree with Keith - no on a turbo pump. Besides, your pressure range is too high for a turbo pump. I also use GP (granville phillips) convectron gauges, good choice there.

Like I said, we add an inert sweep gas which is very easy to control, in fact the flow rate is manually adjusted. The system is very stable. Since you can't do that you might consider Keith's suggestion of adding an inert gas to the foreline, it will have the same effect except that it won't sweep through your chamber.
 

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