Rung Edit Question

showshocka · Mar 29, 2011

Hey guys. Question. Why would a project be left with edit commands on the side where the rung numbers are? I was asked to back-up a project and I saw this. I know it's edit commands but why, if it is a reason, would someone leave edit commands in the project? Is there a data base for what all the rung edit commands mean such as; I, R ...etc...Here's a screen shot of rungs 0173 and 0174. Sometimes the edit command area is all red. What does this mean?

Ron Beaufort · Mar 29, 2011

while they were "online" (communicating with the processor) someone Accepted the edits - but then didn't Assemble them - or Cancel them ... in other words, the edits are sort of still "hanging around" and were never finalized one way or the other ...

those edits were then saved as part of the "offline" (.RSS) file ...

in some cases, this results when "temporary" program changes are made - and the plan is to come back later and finish cleaning things up ... also, in other cases, this is just a sign of sloppy programming practices ...

look at the file name given in the Title Bar at the very top of the screen shot you posted ... do you realize that this is a "BAK" (backup) file? ... in other words, this might (or might not) be a copy of the latest program that's currently in the processor ...

you can read more about this subject in the RSLogix500 Getting Results Guide linked below ...

http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/gr/lg500-gr002_-en-e.pdf

check out the material starting on Page 53 ... tip: ignore the part about the lower case "d" ... there is no such animal ... the book is wrong on that part ...

the "rung number is red" just means that you've "selected" the entire rung (by clicking on it, etc.) ... you usually have to do that to mark the rung before "Accepting" it, etc. ...

daba · Mar 30, 2011

Ron, have you noticed the "No Edits" status?
Is this because we are looking at the project offline?

showshocka, Those edits are in the processor, (as signified by them being CAPITALS), and are an "accident waiting to happen".

We cannot deduce from the screenshot whether it is in "Test Edits Mode" (rungs marked "I" are being executed), or "Untest Edits Mode" (rungs marked "R" are being executed).

Either way, it makes it very difficult for anyone, other than the programmer who put the edits there, to make any further edits.

Scenario #1 - Those edits are in "Test Edits"...

Another edit can't be done to the code until those edits are either Assembled or discarded. To discard them, the PLC will have to be put back to "Untest Edits" mode, which of course will change the code that is being executed..

Scenario #2 - Those edits are in "Untest Edits"...

Further edits can be made to the program, and accepted into the controller. However, when you "Test" the new edits, you will also be testing the existing edits. This, of course, may not be appropriate..

My recommendations:...(assuming, of course, that you can't locate the person who put the edits there, who should always be your first point of call..),

1. Finish the job that is in progress -

a) If the PLC is in "Test Edits" mode, then assemble them, that is the way the code has been running for however long.

b) If the PLC is in "Untest Edits" mode, then Cancel them, that is the way the code has been running for however long.

I always advise that a PLC is never left unattended with half-finished edits. For long-term "fixes", then code should be modified as required, and sufficient documentation provided by the responsible engineer to enable anyone to see what was done, and why.

And when I say "sufficient documentation", I do not just mean rung comments and descriptions added to the PLC file - not everyone may get to see that when it matters. Maintenance techs should log their activities via another medium, perhaps a "Job-Sheet" or similar ....

Ron Beaufort · Mar 30, 2011

Ron, have you noticed the "No Edits" status? Is this because we are looking at the project offline?

yep ... I just confirmed that by making some ONLINE edits – and then going offline after saving the file ... whether it was "Edits Exist" – or whether it was "Edits Active" – it made no difference ... either way, when I went offline the legend changed to say "No Edits"... I'm using RSLogix500 version 8.30.01 by the way ...

for those who are interested, the following related link might be helpful ...

http://forums.mrplc.com/index.php?showtopic=6785

Gil47 · Mar 31, 2011

showshocka said:
Is there a data base for what all the rung edit commands mean such as; I, R ...etc...

To answer this Question the " I " are rungs going to be inserted into the program they will be replacing those labelled with an " R "

Also if you press I think F1 when doing edits the help file I think give a list and there meanings

showshocka · Mar 31, 2011

GM all. Hey Ron and crew, I read up on what the letters in the zone makers mean. Thanks for the link, huge help. Next I would like to know if in can switch the key from "Run" to "Remote" while the line is running. I already tried to get rid of that "I" rung, and the project message told me that run is selected and it can not perform edit changes. I know the operators won't be using the rung so I would like to cancel the "I" rung so the "R" rung will be back active and then cancel the whole edit, so it can go back to the original rung. Or do I have to put the key into program, and will turning the key to program while they're running, will it stop the line for any reason. Essentially, what it is is that I have to change a couple values in some MOV instructions and when I try to change them and hit "Enter" they go right back to what they originally were. Who ever tried to change them before made a whole new rung with other changes that we here don't need now. So I need to get rid on that other "I" rung because the program is in "Test edits", and perform what I stated at the beginning of this post.

showshocka · Mar 31, 2011

Hey daba. All of most of these questions from situations are things that I inherited. All the other Instrument Techs are gone, long gone. This plant has been running since last year with no Electrician/Instrumentation Tech. I've been here for a month now.

bjh · Mar 31, 2011

showshocka said:
... Next I would like to know if in can switch the key from "Run" to "Remote" while the line is running.

Yes, the program will continue running and you can then cancel the edits.

Ron Beaufort · Mar 31, 2011

Greetings showsocka ...

please don't take this the wrong way – I mean absolutely NO offense ... but based on the questions that you're asking – and the fact that you're working on a running system (which presumably needs to STAY running) then I'd make the following recommendation ...

you need to set up a small "training" system to experiment with ... you'll eventually learn all of the tricks of the trade – but learning them by practicing on RUNNING PRODUCTION EQUIPMENT is really not the best way to go ...

so ...

do you have an extra processor, chassis, and power supply available? ... an input and output module would be helpful too – but frankly you need something to PLAY with in order to learn ...

be careful ... be safe ...

showshocka · Mar 31, 2011

Ron Beaufort said:
do you have an extra processor, chassis, and power supply available? quote]

no offense taken, i got you Ron, yes i will look into doing that. I've had a lot of hit and misses with PLC's and i understand the logic and all, but this is my first venture in light programming, which i would never posed to be a programmer, and i also know that last thing that i would ever do is to make a move that I'm unsure of....trust me.....I start AB schooling next week for about a month. So i will be up to speed very soon..thanks.

showshocka · Mar 31, 2011

showshocka said:
Essentially, what it is is that I have to change a couple values in some MOV instructions and when I try to change them and hit "Enter" they go right back to what they originally were.

how can i change them, or what do i need to do first for them to say in the processor?

OkiePC · Mar 31, 2011

showshocka said:
how can i change them, or what do i need to do first for them to say in the processor?

If the values are constants (literals) in the MOV instructions, then you would have to edit the rung in order to change the constant value (like MOV 256.678 N7:0 to change the 256.678 to a different value requires an edit). I am going to assume these are not literal values because I don't think you can "type over" them while online, unless you have a rung edit in process.

If the value in the MOV instruction is an address, and when you change it, it changes right back, then something else in your system is writing to that address. It could be another ladder rung, it could be a remote HMI SCADA or another PLC, so backtracking is required.

Backtracking is pretty easy with RSLogix, just highlight the address and click CTRL + F to pop up the search window then click "Find All". r right click on the address and select "Find All". Then you can look at the list generated by the "Find All" and look for code that may change the value of the address in question.

Now, it is also important to know that "Find All" will not always find every way in which that data could be overwritten. If the address is part of a file instruction like COPY, and it's not the first address, then "Find All" won't find it.

So, instead of Find All, sometimes it's better to highlight the address, then right click and "Goto DataTable". Then from the data table view, click on the usage button (bottom center). If your address is part of a group of addresses that all show to be used, then you can perform the Find All on the first item in the used group and find COP or other instructions which might lead you to the true source of the value.

If you find that there is not any logic in the PLC which is writing to the address, and that it's not part of a block transfer for an i/o card...then you have to look outside the PLC (comms channels) for other devices that may be "in control" of that address.

Paul

daba · Mar 31, 2011

showshocka said:
..... Next I would like to know if in can switch the key from "Run" to "Remote" while the line is running. (1) I already tried to get rid of that "I" rung, and the project message told me that run is selected and it can not perform edit changes (2). I know the operators won't be using the rung so I would like to cancel the "I" rung so the "R" rung will be back active and then cancel the whole edit, so it can go back to the original rung. Or do I have to put the key into program, and will turning the key to program while they're running, will it stop the line for any reason. Essentially, what it is is that I have to change a couple values in some MOV instructions and when I try to change them and hit "Enter" they go right back to what they originally were. Who ever tried to change them before made a whole new rung with other changes that we here don't need now. So I need to get rid on that other "I" rung because the program is in "Test edits" (3), and perform what I stated at the beginning of this post.

Lets deal with these in turn....

(1) Changing from RUN to REM will not affect the running program. Going from RUN to REM puts the processor into "Remote Run" mode, which just enables the following functions...

a) Remote mode change (Rem Run to Rem Prog and vice versa)
b) Online Editing
c) Ability to Download to the Processor

(2) You tried to get rid of the "I" rung(s), but later you say that the program is in "Test Edits" mode. That means the "I" rung(s) are currently being executed, and the "R" rungs are being skipped. If the processor really is in "Test Edits" mode, and you are happy with the way the code is running, then you have to complete the part-way edits and "Assemble" the edits. This will clear away all edit-zone markers, and allow you to make further edits. Remember you cannot do online editing with the keyswitch in the RUN position, and that applies also to assembling or cancelling edits, move it to REM, but be careful not to overdo it and put it into PROG.

(3) You do not want to get rid of the "I" rungs if you are in "Test Edits" mode, these rungs are the ones that are executing, not the "R" rungs, so the correct action (assuming the program is working properly), is to "Assemble" edits.

(2) and (3) are really saying the same thing - if you are happy with the way the program is running, then, depending on the "edits" status, do the following....

If in Test Edits mode (Edits Active), then Assemble them

If in Edits Exist mode (Edits Inactive), then Cancel them

HTH

Rung Edit Question

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