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JesperMP
May 11th, 2011, 08:47 AM
This is a work in progress.

I have just had a few hours with the software, and have only been through most of the STEP7 part. The WinCC part has to wait a couple of days. In other words, it is quite superficial, but I think that a full review will take months, so I have started an incremental review.

Installation time is approx 1.5 hours, with 3 reboots.

General usage:

You need a large monitor. It works OK with my 24" screen plus additional 19" screen. I can put the "Properties" window on the small screen. That increases the useful area in the most important window, the editor view.
But if you have a laptop with just a small 17" screen, it will be painful.

The speed of the software seems so-so. The first time it has to create a project it takes quite a long time to create all the directories etc.
After that there seem to be a tiny bit of delay after you drag-and-drop something for example.

The interface is very mouse-intensive.
For drag-and-drop, a small niggle that reminds of WinCC Flex, is that you cannot directly select and drag an element. You have to first select with a click on the element, and then you can click and drag the selected element. Irritating. This seems to be the same for all editors and dialogs.


The hardware and network configuration:

It takes a lot of getting used to, but seems to be logically organised. It is much more slick and visual, which is nice of course.


The LAD editor:

In the declaration of variables, there is a drop down menu for the various types. Very similar to the old editor.
The IEC timer TON was not in the drop down menu.
There is an instruction menu from where you can drag-and-drop for example the TON instruction. You dont have to add the SFBs or SFCs manually which is a step forward.
The logical step would be to drag-and-drop TON from the instruction menu to the declaration list, but that does not work. However, you can just type in "TON" and the editor figures out that you mean to add the TON SFC. (this is the first example that drag-and-drop that does not work ;) ). I am guessing that this is persistent for all multi instance FB calls, but I will have to do some further testing.

In the block editor there is a user-configurable instruction toolbar. So you can drag-and-drop you favourite instructions to this toolbar. That is fine, but it would be even better if you could assign short-cut keys to these favourite instructions. I have not found (yet) if this is possible.

The IEC timers are different to the old version. Now there is no EN or ENO. The TON block simply appears in the middle of the rung where you need it. I shall have to investigate further what that means to the functionality.
When adding an IEC timer, a dialog pops up where you can choose the IDB or the multi-instance name. Strangely you cannot browse to an already configured TON declaration. If you close the dialog, then you can manually enter, or even browse to the configured declaration. Thats a bit inconsistent.

Good is that you can save even if the code is not finished, with non-closed rungs for example.

Scrolling with the mouse is snappy. On the other hand, I cannot figure out how to quickly browse through rungs with the keyboard.


The SCL editor:

It is now not 100% text based. The declaration part is done via the declaration editor, similar as with LAD or FBD.
So you can forget about posting full code sample by simple text cut-and-paste, such as when you want to send some SCL code by email or in a document, or in a web-site. (corrected, see next post !)
THIS I DO NOT LIKE !!!!
It was really a breese to quickly edit variables before. Now you have to do the dance by moving back and forth between two windows in the editor.

It also seems that you can only edit one block at a time. Not like before where you could start with a UDT, then continue with a DB with the same UDT inside, and continue again with an FB or FC using both UDT and DB inside the FB or FC.
THIS IS A STEP BACKWARDS !!!! (I might be wrong. Maybe there is a way to edit several blocks in one editor view as before.)

And how does one create UDTs and DBs in SCL ? Has that gone too ?

There is an auto-indentation, and further goodies that assist in editing quickly. So it is not all bad.


The UDT editor:

It is logical enough. But it is just much more cumbersome than in SCL.


The DB editor:

I have absolutely no fun with this editor !
Creating DBs in the DB editor is even worse than creating UDTs. The speed with which you create DBs is down by a factor 10-20 when compared to the old method in SCL.
It is also more tedious than the old DB editor. Thats just my feeling of it.

To be continued.......

(you are welcome to correct my findings, or to add you own discoveries or opinions).

JesperMP
May 11th, 2011, 09:01 AM
The first correction already :)

Regarding export and import of SCL code:
There is a function to export a complete SCL block as text, including the declaration.
And conversely, there is a method to import SCL code via "SCL source" text files.

However, editing the SCL code in the main editor is by separate declaration and code.

jcr
May 11th, 2011, 10:36 AM
Jesper,

I'm curious about the cost of this software. I see complaints all the time about the cost of Rockwell Software. Is this Siemens package in the same price range as RA or much lower priced?

I'm enjoying your review so far by the way.

Thank you!

Saperov
May 11th, 2011, 10:45 AM
How about PLCSIM ?
It old v5.4 ? or new and support S7-1200 ?

TurpoUrpo
May 11th, 2011, 11:10 AM
It worked with old plcsim, did not find if there was new one. I had install time of ~40min and only one reboot.

Saperov
May 11th, 2011, 12:38 PM
It worked with old plcsim, did not find if there was new one.
Great Disappointment of the year worth one billion euros :boo:
wait SP2.

STL???
May 11th, 2011, 02:50 PM
Can you upload online DB values in the new software?

will follow with interest.

Jeebs
May 12th, 2011, 02:35 AM
So, they really killed STL???

RMA
May 12th, 2011, 04:07 AM
So, they really killed STL???
Only for the 1200 as I understand it. My understanding is that in the 1200 STL would be an emulation and would therefore have no speed advantage over the other programming methods (in fact, it would be substantially slower), so the 1200s will never get STL.

The 300- and 400-series will keep STL, however.

JesperMP
May 12th, 2011, 04:20 AM
I'm curious about the cost of this software. I see complaints all the time about the cost of Rockwell Software. Is this Siemens package in the same price range as RA or much lower priced?Overall, the price level for the software is the same for Siemens and RA.
Siemens hardware is significantly less expensive than AB hardware. Something like 15-35% less for the same functionality.
The main difference is that RA forces you into a support contract. As a professional developer, or as an end-customer you cannot live without a support contract. I have heard wildly varying quotes as to what this adds to the cost. Something between 25% and 100% extra expense over the long time.
Siemens has a SUS contract system as well, but it is not the same, and you dont need it to get support.
(NB. I think that further discussion about this topic should be in a separate thread).

How about PLCSIM ?
It old v5.4 ? or new and support S7-1200 ?No PLCSIM support for S7-1200. But it must come sooner or later.

Can you upload online DB values in the new software?I am struggling with the online simulation at the moment. I have loaded a program in the simulator, but I get an uninformative errormessage when I try to watch the DB online. "Unknown. Error in lower-level component". So I will have to check that later.

So, they really killed STL??? No. It is still there (dont know if it is available for S7-1200, guess it isnt). However, I am not going to test STL (!).

JesperMP
May 12th, 2011, 04:45 AM
Can you upload online DB values in the new software?I havent got it to work yet, but there is a button "snapshot of the monitored values" which sets the monitored actual values as initial values. So it seems that they have been listening to some of our complaints. :)

Jeebs
May 12th, 2011, 04:51 AM
Since we are mostly STL based, I'm glad they didn't remove it.
Will however take a year or more before we start using the new TIA.
People over here are ..... well the only word worh using is conservative.
New projects, developped out of house, are requested in WinCC 6.2 for example, while our inhouse projects are running on WinCC 7.2.

Thanks for keeping us informed, can't wait for the next updates.

JesperMP
May 12th, 2011, 07:28 AM
STEP7 v11 continued:

General:

Every time you have to open a window for the 1st time, it takes 5-10 seconds. It is like WinCC Flex 2004 with a slow PC.

The new color scheme is very confusing. Sometimes orange means online view, sometimes not. Pink seems to indicate problems.

DB online view:

I cannot figure out how to change actual values online.
I also cannot see the absolute address like the old style "data view" did.

Variable Table view:

I cannot browse already configured DB addresses.

Moving on to WinCC. It is more probable that I would start with WinCC v11 than STEP7 v11. This mostly because of the new exciting comfort panels.

So, after a half day with WinCC ....

Installation of WinCC Professional on top on an already installed WinCC Basic took 1 hour and 1 reboot.

WinCC Property view of screen object:
This one kills me. The size of the field for the Tag is far far too small. Just like in WinCC Flexible !
You cannot see the whole tag name, or address, unless they are unrealistically short.
How can they repeat this error which has been complained about ad nauseam ?

WinCC browsing for PLC tags:
This is the much-touted integration with the CPU.
Works OK, but there is nothing new when compared to the older Flexible.

WinCC connection setup:
This is the 1st serious issue so far.
I have both 315-2PNDP and KP700 connected to the same network, but I still cannot specify the 315-2PNDP as the partner.
I have no idea what I do wrong, and WinCC doesnt help me. I think it is a bug in the current release. I tried to "interconnect" the ports on the 3415-2PNDP and the KP700. When interconnecting the ports on the 315-2PNDP, the KP700 did not show up. When interconnecting the ports on the KP700, the 315-2PNDP showed up twice (!). When I chose one of the ports on one of the 315-2PNDP's, TIA portal crashed. After reboot, this anomaly diosappeared and I could interconnect the devices; but STILL NOT POSSIBLE TO CREATE CONNECTION BETWEEN 315-PNDP AND KP700, despite that they are interconnected 100%.
I can setup the connection manually, but it is the integration that I want to test. If setup manually, the tag integration does not work.
Unfortunately, this more or less stops me in my tracks at the moment. I shall fight on ...

JesperMP
May 12th, 2011, 11:39 AM
I'm getting the betatester blues here.

In an attempt to get a project to work on, I tried running a working STEP7 v5.5 + WinCC Flex project through the migration tool.

Had to upgrade the HMI to Flex 2008 SP2.
Had to disable the webserver on the CPU.
Had to update i/o modules to very latest versions.
Had to run a consistency check.
Still, I get an "error during migration" message, with zero explanation as to what is wrong.

So, I am stuck again. :furi:

TurpoUrpo
May 12th, 2011, 11:58 AM
No wonder SP1 is coming with SUS..

JesperMP
May 13th, 2011, 07:05 AM
Started all over, and it is going much better today.

The problems yesterday I grant to Siemens must be because this is version 1.0.0. Stuff like this happens, and lets move on.
Now I have an IM151-8 and ET200S and KP700, all connected via Profinet.

So I have rewritten everything with the latest experiences.

General usage:

Overall, the integration functionality and appearance of TIA Portal is very good, and it looks pretty and slick.

You need a large monitor. It works OK with my 24" screen plus additional 19" screen. I can put the "Properties" window on the small screen. That increases the useful area in the most important window, the editor view.
But if you have a laptop with just a small 17" screen, it will be painful.

Negative is that the speed is slow. Doing something complex, such as inserting a complete station freezes the software for 10-20 seconds. That is not so bad though. More aggrevating is that every simple action such as editing texts, placing contacts, selecting a property etc. happens with a minimal but unignorable delay. This will really irritate in the long run. My PC is a AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual 4400+ @2.2 GHz. I have only 2 GB RAM, but it is not fully utilised. I am going to ask IT to add 2 more GB and see if that helps. Programs and projects are stored on local hard disks.
Update: After closing ALL other programs, i "feel" a slight improvement. So it may well be that maximum RAM should be installed on the machine.

The interface is very mouse-intensive.
For drag-and-drop, a small niggle that reminds of WinCC Flex, is that you cannot directly select and drag an element. You have to first select with a click on the element, and then you can click and drag the selected element. Irritating. This seems to be the same for all editors and dialogs.

The stability of TIA Portal is better than for example WinCC Fexible 2004. I did have a problem at my first attempt. But after I have managed to setup a project, I have not had a problem for a full day.

The hardware and network configuration:

It takes a lot of getting used to, but seems to be logically organised. It is much more slick and visual, which is nice of course. The integration is high. It was this that somehow failed in my first attempt. When it works, it works well.


STEP7 LAD editor:

In the declaration of variables, there is a drop down menu for the various types. Very similar to the old editor.
But, the IEC timer TON was not in the drop down menu.
There is an instruction menu from where you can drag-and-drop for example the TON instruction. You dont have to add the SFBs or SFCs manually which is a step forward.
The logical step would be to drag-and-drop TON from the instruction menu to the declaration list, but that does not work. However, you can just type in "TON" and the editor figures out that you mean to add the TON SFC. (this is the first example that drag-and-drop that does not work ;) ). I am guessing that this is persistent for all multi instance FB calls, but I will have to do some further testing.

The IEC timers are different to the old version. Now there is no EN or ENO. The TON block simply appears in the middle of the rung where you need it. I shall have to investigate further what that means to the functionality.
When adding an IEC timer, a dialog pops up where you can choose the IDB or the multi-instance name. Strangely you cannot browse to an already configured TON declaration. If you close the dialog, then you can manually enter, or even browse to the configured declaration. Thats a bit inconsistent.

Good is that you can save even if the code is not finished, with non-closed rungs for example.

I find that navigation by the keyboard only is not efficient enough.
Scrolling with the mouse is snappy. But it seems that it is not possible to quickly browse through rungs with the keyboard (!).

Editing Symbols (now called "PLC Tags") also lacks that you can type in the name or the address, and then close the dialog with a hot-key. (in v5.5 you could use ALT-O for "OK"). Suggestion to Siemens: Add a hotkey to accept and close dialogs.

There is an instruction favorite bar, and you can add instructions to these favourites. But you cannot assign hot-keys to your own favourites.
Since there are only 6 predefined instructions with hot-keys, you can in reality forget about coding efficiently with the keyboard only.
And so on and so on....
Whoever wrote this software did not have oldfashioned keyboard-only programmers in mind

Something strange that only confirms this: It seems that the designers thought that hot-keys would not be necessary. For example, if I place a contact and want to assign the PLC tag by browsing, then there is no hot-key to call up a list of PLC tags. But if you wait 5-10 seconds without doing anything, the list then pops up automatically. Is that hare-brained or what ? This "functionality" works the same for many other dialogs.
I found that a half-acceptable workaround would be like this:
Selecting variables from the PLC tags: Start by typing a quote ("), and the list of PLC tags pops up.
Placing instructions: Use SHIFT-F5 to place an unspecified "block", then type in the shorthand code for the desired function. Yes, that means you have to memorise all the shorthand codes for the instruction set.
Suggestion to Siemens: When hitting SPACE when any of these dialog are active, please display the list of PLC tags, or instructions.


STEP7 SCL editor:

The SCL editor now works in much the same way as the LAD editor. This means you must define the declaration part in the declaration editor, which works exactly as in the LAD editior.
Also, you can only write one block at a time.
There are functions to export the SCL code to text files ("source" files), and conversely to import from external source files. So there are source file just like in v5.5, only now you primarily code in the dedicated code editor.

You can no longer create UDTs or DBs in SCL !
Too bad. I really liked to combine code in one SCL document. Also, I found it nifty to quickly set actual values by an explicit statament in the DB declaration.

Auto indentation works well.

Auto-suggestion also works, for both instructions and PLC Tags.

Some have reported that the editor automatically places an END_IF after an IF, automatically closes statements with ";" and so forth. But I havent seen this. But you can insert a FOR template for example, just as in v5.5.

Another quirk: If you want to browse to "MyData".mystruct.val22 for example, for every level where there is a preiod ("."), you select the current address at the current level, and then the view closes. You have to press the period (".") key to get to the next level. It is more irritating than it sounds (!).
Suggestion to Siemens: Why not just browse all the way to the desired data with the arrow keys, and accept with ENTER ?


STEP7 DB editor and online view:

Works much like the old editor.
One thing, you have to remember to manually compile the block. Otherwise the declarations will not permeate through the project.
Also, only then can you observe and change values online.
(I think I managed to download an uncompiled datablock before I figured this out).


STEP7 Variable Table view:

Works much like the old VAT. Only you have to remember to compile the DBs you want to monitor.


WinCC browsing for PLC tags:

This is the much-touted integration with the CPU.
Works OK, but there is nothing new when compared to the older Flexible.


WinCC screen editor:

It is really very much like Flexible, not surprising.
One bad thing is that the toolbar now has much fewer functions you can click directly. There is a dropdown menu for each kind of activity, and the toolbar remembers the last selected. So if you have to repeatedly align objects to the left side that is fine. But if you have to align varyingly to the left, to the top, to the bottom, you need many more mouse-clicks than before. It appears that this toolbar is not configurable.


WinCC Property view of screen object:

This one kills me. The size of the field for the Tag is far far too small. Just like in WinCC Flexible !
You cannot see the whole tag name, or address, unless they are unrealistically short.
How can they repeat this error which has been complained about ad nauseam ?


WinCC VBS Script editor:

Not much has changed.
A new thing is that you can hit CTRL-J in order to browse for Tags you want to insert.
Strange is that now there are 3 quotes around smarttags. I.e.: SmartTags("""MyData_r._02""").


The new Comfort Panels:

I have only tried editing a KP700 in WinCC. But what a difference a boost in screen resolution from 320x240 to 800x480 makes !
This panel is going to be a winner. Cant believe that you get a brighter and bigger and much higher resolution screen, much higher performance, alu front, and at a lower price than before. There must be a catch ?!


Conclusion so far:
I think that you can actually use TIA Portal at the moment. At least for smaller project. However, Siemens has to finetune the user interface in order to make full-time coding productive. As it stands now, I cannot recommend TIA Portal as the main tool for full-time programmers.

Final words so far..

Will continue. But at the moment I am stuck with not being able to migrate old projects. I dont want to have to rewrite everthing from scratch.

I am open to requests for things to investigate.

JesperMP
May 16th, 2011, 08:42 AM
My "quick review (http://www.plcs.net/downloads/index.php?action=downloadfile&filename=TIA Portal v11 review.pdf&directory=Siemens&)" of TIA Portal v11 is now ready (now with pictures !).

I am still interested if anyone wants me to investigate something specifically.

ELake20
May 16th, 2011, 08:58 AM
Thanks for putting the time into doing this write-up!

Expecting my copy soon and this will definitely help the transition

TurpoUrpo
May 16th, 2011, 10:10 AM
Actually jesper, ctrl+tab works as I except. Switches tabs.

Ctrl + F6 switches between windows.

504bloke
May 16th, 2011, 04:27 PM
Nice Avatar Jesper ;-)

Nice review, speed i have found is just appalling, i have a 15" dell D820 and its not nice (the TIA that is!)

JesperMP
May 17th, 2011, 02:54 AM
Actually jesper, ctrl+tab works as I except. Switches tabs.
Ctrl + F6 switches between windows.
The Windows standard is that CTRL-TAB shall switch between "MDI" Windows. In TIA Portal CTRL-TAB doesnt do anything.
edit: I see now, that if there are two layers of tabs, then CTRL-TAB switches between the second level of tabs.

The Windows standard also says that ALT-F6 shall switch windows within a program. (however, this requires the use of both hands, so it is of little use). In TIA Portal ALT-F6 doesnt do anything.

CTRL-F6 is not a standard windows key combination.
Congratulations for finding this key combo in TIA Portal. It is not documented in the help tekst (!). I guess one should try all key combos to se if they do something.
But I dont like to have to use two hands. CTRL-TAB can be done with one hand. Why not use the windows standard ?

TurpoUrpo
May 17th, 2011, 07:34 AM
The Windows standard is that CTRL-TAB shall switch between "MDI" Windows. In TIA Portal CTRL-TAB doesnt do anything.
edit: I see now, that if there are two layers of tabs, then CTRL-TAB switches between the second level of tabs.


There is no two levels of tabs. Its windows and tabs. Those windows are on bottom,you can detach them if you like. Tabs you cannot detach.

What i dont like is that instead of opening new tab in editor window when opening block of code, it opens new editor window. Tabs would be more intuitive and then it would work lot better. ctrl+tab for tabs and if you need to have other type of editor open then other shortcut for it.


The Windows standard also says that ALT-F6 shall switch windows within a program. (however, this requires the use of both hands, so it is of little use). In TIA Portal ALT-F6 doesnt do anything.

CTRL-F6 is not a standard windows key combination.
Congratulations for finding this key combo in TIA Portal. It is not documented in the help tekst (!). I guess one should try all key combos to se if they do something.
But I dont like to have to use two hands. CTRL-TAB can be done with one hand. Why not use the windows standard ?

I just looked at options in menu and its shortcuts. Thats basic where everything is lookup for first time use.

I do agree that ctrl+f6 is unusable.


ps. I like the autocompletion how it is now. But that does not mean it would not be nice to have also ability to select variable by arrow keys.

knutabru
May 18th, 2011, 02:44 PM
My "quick review (http://www.plcs.net/downloads/index.php?action=downloadfile&filename=TIA Portal v11 review.pdf&directory=Siemens&)" of TIA Portal v11 is now ready (now with pictures !).

I am still interested if anyone wants me to investigate something specifically.


Hello.

I have been hoping that this new tool would allow me to structure the program-blocks in the same manner that WinCCflexible allows me to add a sub-group for the tags, screens and alarms. In that way it would be possible to, for example, create a group (sub-folder) where I could "hide" all the instance DB's.

Could you please check that out?

Best regards
Knut.

Homer_BL
May 19th, 2011, 06:08 AM
At this point TIA v11 is useless.

Does not support DP and MPI (only Teleservice and Profinet)
Using applications created in v10.5 is not possible if libraries were included.
TIA v11 can not 'remember' language setting as it was case in v10.5
No support of GSM comm board as written in manual.

JesperMP
May 19th, 2011, 09:35 AM
@Knut.

I will check it on monday.

Homer_BL
May 19th, 2011, 11:38 AM
Bug No 125:
In 'Program info', you can not see Used retentive memory (always=0), but in DB usage downunder there are real usage values.

Homer_BL
May 19th, 2011, 11:43 AM
Bug No 126:
If you have a system with S7-1200 (Profinet only) and KTP600 (DP only), you can use in HMI tags from PLC even if they can not communicate (Profinet<->DP).

Homer_BL
May 19th, 2011, 11:45 AM
Bug No 127:
Port baud rate (Default value: 0):
1 = 300 baud, 2 = 600 baud, 3 = 1200 baud, 4 = 2400 baud, 5 = 4800 baud, 6 = 9600 baud, 7 = 19200 baud, 8 = 38400 baud, 9 = 57600 baud,
10 = 76800 baud, 11 = 115200 baud

Why set as a default a non-allowed value?

JesperMP
May 23rd, 2011, 10:40 AM
I have been hoping that this new tool would allow me to structure the program-blocks in the same manner that WinCCflexible allows me to add a sub-group for the tags, screens and alarms. In that way it would be possible to, for example, create a group (sub-folder) where I could "hide" all the instance DB's.Yes, that is now possible. Notice that this is merely a help to organise the program visually. It does not affect the programs structure.

JesperMP
May 23rd, 2011, 10:45 AM
Bug No 126:
If you have a system with S7-1200 (Profinet only) and KTP600 (DP only), you can use in HMI tags from PLC even if they can not communicate (Profinet<->DP).This is the same also for other panels and CPUs. And is the same in WinCC Flex.
You can browse for and insert any PLC variable, even if it is not connectable.
But you will get an error when you try to compile the entire project.

Bug No 127:
Port baud rate (Default value: 0):
1 = 300 baud, 2 = 600 baud, 3 = 1200 baud, 4 = 2400 baud, 5 = 4800 baud, 6 = 9600 baud, 7 = 19200 baud, 8 = 38400 baud, 9 = 57600 baud,
10 = 76800 baud, 11 = 115200 baud
Why set as a default a non-allowed value?And where do you see these baudrates ?

Besides, I can imagine there are hundreds of smaller bugs and issues like that. Good idea to feed back to Siemens to fix, but dont think there is much need to post every single issue here.

Homer_BL
May 23rd, 2011, 02:48 PM
:)

About No 126: I would be nice that only accessable tags are enabled.

About No 127: You will find it Operation Manuals of 232 and 485 comm modules. And when you insert comm block.

OK, no more post here from me.
BTW, I am testing now WinCC Prof V11.

JesperMP
May 23rd, 2011, 03:31 PM
I didnt mean you shouldnt post anything.
It just that if we post all the minute niggles, it drowns out the overall picture.

I definitely appreciate your input.

Homer_BL
May 23rd, 2011, 03:38 PM
No problem, I am dissapointed. This version should never be published, it's pretty 'green' now. It's all now confusing because:
1. supports S7-1200 but it is not usefull for S7-1200 project created in V10.5
2. Support S7-300/400 but you can not use projects created in Step7 V5.x.
Big mistake publishing it so quick and not-finished.

3. Support WinCC Flex but you can not use ALL projects created in 2008.

JesperMP
May 23rd, 2011, 03:47 PM
2. Support S7-300/400 but you can not use projects created in Step7 V5.x.
3. Support WinCC Flex but you can not use ALL projects created in 2008.You should elaborate on these points.
There are some strict requirements about the hardware having to be the latest versions, and the migration doesnt work flawlessly, but I have managed to migrate several projects.

Homer_BL
May 23rd, 2011, 03:53 PM
I see it this way:
If Step7 V11 is ment to be a application which support Step 5.x projects, then, I ONLY ONE import fails, I call it a bad application.

You are more optimistic, I see, for You it is enough to import AL LEAST ONE, and it is OK.
:)

I just do not want to have a complicated work with buggy sowtware and get angry in filed, beacouse someone is Siemens can not do his job.

Bratt
May 24th, 2011, 01:10 AM
My biggest disappointment so far is the speed. Everything seems to take more time in the portal than Step7 5.5. I cant understand why they don't optimize their software more.

Other than that it seems much more user friendly but i'm guessing it will take at least a year or two maybe three before we can make the switch from 5.5

JesperMP
May 26th, 2011, 10:01 AM
For those of you who can read german, here is a presentation with a lot of really useful information.
http://www.siemens.de/industry/automation/mitte/downloads/Documents/NF_MHM_KOP_FUP_AWL_SCL_Graph.pdf

Please notice that some of the really cool stuff such as indirect adressing in LAD, and other things, only pertain to S7-1200 !

J-Ho
June 2nd, 2011, 12:06 PM
Has anyone tried the latest update?

http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/adsearch/resultset.aspx?region=WW&lang=en&netmode=internet&ui=NDAwMDAxNwAA&term=tia+portal&ID=50085730&ehbid=50085730

Homer_BL
June 3rd, 2011, 02:28 PM
I installed it, no visible changes.

orense
June 25th, 2011, 04:43 AM
Hello,

I just installed the v11 Wincc part of the TIA on a dedicated industrial pc in my office. It is the only installed software I'm running on the pc, and it is not that slow. I have a TP1200 Comfort panel, which will be used for my first configuration.

One of the things I'd like to try first, is the monitoring function of the network. This is one of the new additions that Siemens mentioned in their advertisment for the new panels. I will connect the panel to a 315-2 DP through Profibus DP and try to monitor it, the visualise it on the panel.

Has anybody tried that?
It is supposed to be very simple because you don't have to program any logic in the plc, the panel is supposed to do all
the diagnostics and monitoring itself.

However, I can not seem to find the correct symbols in the library. Neither do I know if I have to enable any options in order to activate the network monitoring. This is something I assume I would have to do.

I can't find any manuals for the software either. Do anybody know if there is anything available on the Siemens pages or something?

Thanks for inputs.

brg
Andreas

Saperov
June 25th, 2011, 08:26 AM
I can't find any manuals for the software either. Do anybody know if there is anything available on the Siemens pages or something?
http://www.industry.siemens.com/topics/global/en/tia-portal/pages/default.aspx
http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/view/en/47071380/133300
There are no Manuals available for TIA PortalWhy ?
Because the TIA Portal "Innovation Tour Edition" officially exist in beta-testing mode.
Wait public SP1 Edition.

Gromit
July 14th, 2011, 06:28 AM
I am struggling with the online simulation at the moment. I have loaded a program in the simulator, but I get an uninformative errormessage when I try to watch the DB online. "Unknown. Error in lower-level component". So I will have to check that later.



Did you manage to find a solution?
Everytime I start the simulator I get the message "Error, Error in lower-level component"???

Everytime when I set-up an Ethernet connection between CPU317-2 PN/DP and WinCC Prof RT I get the same error message: "Error, Error in lower-level component" and the SF LED lits red. If the connection is established via MPI there is no error message and no SF LED active.

Very strange TIA Portal behaviour?

mrmss
July 17th, 2011, 04:40 PM
Jesper - have you looked into the import/export on WinCC? Seems to have a bug in that I have ~200 discrete alarms and its missing about 60. Seems to be illogical what it has skipped but it skips the same each time.

mrmss
July 17th, 2011, 05:13 PM
Ahaaa - sussed it both me and TIA are stupid. I had quickly written my alarms in Excel and imported within 10mins, then I thought it'd be nice to utilise the Name column so I exported back to DiscreteAlarms.xlsx and in 2mins zapped my 200 alarms with meaningful names...however, my names were not unique and they should be! HOWEVER it would have been polite (a common courtesy) of TIA to point this out!

I then spent the next three hours trying to see what was wrong with TIA not for a moment thinking I had introduced the problem.

Oh well...I'll sleep better tonight since I have invested (gambled?) about three days of developent in TIA and could picture myself manually re-creating the project back into WinCC 2008/Step 7 5.5 (after spending several hours migrating from said platform into TIA!)

STL???
July 17th, 2011, 06:28 PM
Oh well...I'll sleep better tonight since I have invested (gambled?) about three days of developent in TIA and could picture myself manually re-creating the project back into WinCC 2008/Step 7 5.5 (after spending several hours migrating from said platform into TIA!)

I hope you are working with a copy of the original Programs! doesn't sound like it - risky risky!!

Gromit
July 18th, 2011, 07:01 AM
I am struggling with the online simulation at the moment. I have loaded a program in the simulator, but I get an uninformative errormessage when I try to watch the DB online. "Unknown. Error in lower-level component". So I will have to check that later.


Anyone knows something about this issue???

uptown47
July 18th, 2011, 08:08 AM
Jesper, great thread. Really interesting read.

Does anyone know whether TIA Portal will run side-by-side with Simatic Manager v5.5 ? Or am I better installing it in a 'virtual' environment.?

I've just emailed my Siemens rep to see if I can get hold of an 'evaluation' copy. We spoke a week or so ago and he said that he thought it wouldn't be a problem so fingers crossed ;-)

TurpoUrpo
July 18th, 2011, 08:27 AM
It runs side by side, but its not really usable yet.

uptown47
July 18th, 2011, 09:26 AM
It runs side by side, but its not really usable yet.

Thanks Turpo ;-)

mrmss
July 18th, 2011, 03:59 PM
I hope you are working with a copy of the original Programs! doesn't sound like it - risky risky!!

I originally migrated a project (to base my new project on) into TIA as my client wanted to use TIA. So its new development - from what I have seen I agree with Jesper that for a certain size project its okay.

mrmss
August 3rd, 2011, 05:37 PM
In TIA are you missing the ability to use Go To Location (Ctrl + Alt + Q)?

Seems the only thing now is Cross-reference but that isnt very good.

I use Ints sometimes to set individual bits. I dont seem to be able to cross-reference individual bits or even the Int. If I select the row in the DB and right-click, the Cross-reference information is greyed.

Seems strange.

seppoalanen
August 14th, 2011, 08:26 AM
Does anyone know whether TIA Portal will run side-by-side with Simatic Manager v5.5 ?

I have with V11 Pro.:bow:
Simatic Manager v5.5 works well by V11 licence as well than WinCC Flex 2008 sp2 works with it's WinCC V11 licence.

TIA Portal V11 pro itself "works" as: "Tehere are warnings and Errors" when I try imigrate what ever from older 5.4-5.5/WinCC Flex 2008sp2 project.:smas:
Maybe some day in the future it works well, but anyhow not before I retired. I don't use V11 for work purposes before it really works with old projects. But, externally it looks nice.

J-Ho
August 15th, 2011, 04:25 PM
v11 Basic will work alongside v5.5, but v11 Pro must be a standalone install.

Mike_RH
August 15th, 2011, 06:12 PM
J-Ho, V11 Pro will live quite happily with either Step 7 V5.4 or V5.5

JesperMP
August 16th, 2011, 03:56 AM
I have both v5.5 and v11 Pro running on the same machine.

J-Ho
August 16th, 2011, 04:45 AM
Really? Which version of v11? Update 2? And was the install an upgrade from 10.5 or a clean v11 install?

We've had issues and now run two separate installs.

Oh, what it might be is an incompatibility with Scout - do either of you run Scout?

JesperMP
August 16th, 2011, 04:53 AM
I have v11, without any updates or SP1.
I installed v11 without any prior v10.
I am waiting for the SUS update to arrive, as I find the downloads are too huge.

Re scout, then notice that Scout is part of Simatic Net, and not STEP7.
edit: Which means, your Scout may be much older than STEP7.

Mike_RH
August 16th, 2011, 06:04 PM
I have computers that were clean installs of 5.5 and v11 and also upgrades.
You can also have v10.5 (basic) and v11 pro installed at the same time.
I have sp1 and update 1. To the best of my knowledge there is no update 2 (yet)!

I don't have Scout, but do have Starter.

TurpoUrpo
August 16th, 2011, 06:21 PM
I have computers that were clean installs of 5.5 and v11 and also upgrades.
You can also have v10.5 (basic) and v11 pro installed at the same time.
I have sp1 and update 1. To the best of my knowledge there is no update 2 (yet)!

I don't have Scout, but do have Starter.

There is Update 1, Update 2 and SP1. SP1 covers all that was before.

Mike_RH
August 16th, 2011, 06:51 PM
Actually there is Update 1 to SP1 - it came out last week:
http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/view/en/52258326

Not bad for software that has only been out 2 months - 3 updates and a service pack!

TurpoUrpo
August 16th, 2011, 07:13 PM
Did not know that, LOL, so there is Upd1, Upd2, SP1, Upd1toSP1 :D

adamplc
August 25th, 2011, 01:07 PM
Did not know that, LOL, so there is Upd1, Upd2, SP1, Upd1toSP1 :D

Siemens is crazy:boo: I cannot install straight to the latest update, It seems that you have to update 1 by 1 anyone else having this trouble?

Mike_RH
August 25th, 2011, 01:33 PM
You should be able to install SP1 without having the previous updates. As SP1 includes the update 1 and 2.

However be prepared - if have Step 7 Pro and WinCC pro, you must install two separate service packs, one for Step 7 and one for WinCC.

After installing the service packs, there is update 1 for Step 7 V11 SP1.

Manglemender
August 25th, 2011, 03:43 PM
I'm trying to resist until service pack 2 at least. We have a copy in the office but no-one has used it yet (we have used TIA V10.5). I suppose it's only a matter of time before an S7-1200 job turns up and someone must dive in.

Nick

PLCnewbie18
August 29th, 2011, 03:10 AM
Hi! May I ask--is the TIA portal an offical release, or is it actually a beta? We are looking into Siemens products--and frankly, I am quite confused.

Do I understand correctly: are STEP 7 V11 and WinCC V11 the most updated packages for applications, and that these are best used under the TIA portal?

It is amazing how each manufacturer is its own little universe, so to speak :-)
Thanks!

JesperMP
August 29th, 2011, 03:36 AM
Hi PLCnewbie18.

TIA Portal is officially released.
STEP7 v11 and WinCC v11 (with various SPs and UPDs) are the most uptodate software versions.

That said, as this software is completely new and very ambitous, there are many "kinderkrankheiten". I would wait 1 year before jumping.

If you are completely new to S7, and you have a new project, and you need to decide here and now, then I would learn STEP7 v5.5 and WinCC Flex 2008 first.

PLCnewbie18
August 29th, 2011, 05:09 AM
Thank you for the information. Knowing where to start is both difficult and critical to success :-)

Mike_RH
August 29th, 2011, 11:23 AM
"kinderkrankheiten"

Had use Google for that - but it's more than correct! LOL!

adamplc
August 30th, 2011, 06:33 AM
Please tell me you don't have to re install all GSD files for project conversion?
Any project I convert errors out with a message about re installing the GSD file, can you find the old GSD files within the siemens s7 project folder?

sundune
September 17th, 2011, 04:47 AM
Has anybody noticed that when you go on line with the s7 1200, the online window zooms in and there is no way of zooming back out. What is the point of having a 19" monitor when all I can see is half a dozen lines of code, its seems no better than a hand held programmer that I used good old days.

livars
September 24th, 2011, 06:08 AM
Hi,

Having done the first install of TIA (Step7 V11 Sp1 Upd1) ever a day before yesterday and having played around with it for a day I have to totally agree with JesperMP (http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/member.php?u=2124) in his review on page 2 of this thread.

The new interface looks better and more "modern" but it doesn't help if one cannot work with it in a good and efficient manner. The older Step7 versions have loads of quirks of their own but the V11 didn't feel ready at all, I'm sorry to say. I had several crashes with just a S7-400 hardware configured when I browsed and tested different funktions and options. Some crashes may of course be due to lack of memory (2GB with T7500 Core2Duo CPU).

Many things a of course "kinderkrankheiten" but the lack of good keyboard control is a real disappointment to me. I know that Windows promotes the "click,click" way of doing things, but I think that you can work more efficiently by using the keyboard. My spontane feeling is that PC programmers have had more to say about how the program should work than the PLC programmers, users.

Manglemender
September 26th, 2011, 09:26 AM
I know that Windows promotes the "click,click" way of doing things, but I think that you can work more efficiently by using the keyboard.


I agree, every time you have to reach for a mouse it slows you down. My laptop has spent a lot of time in dirty factories lately and it's clear from looking at the keyboard which keys get used most; I don't seem to use the letter J very much.

A couple of weeks ago I installed it into a virtual machine for a colleague but I haven't had much chance to look at it yet. One thing I did look for, but was dissapointed not to find, was support for UDTs in an HMI in a "Totally Integrated" kind of way. I didn't even find structure tags but maybe I was looking in the wrong place.

What I'd like - in a Totally Integrated kind of way - is to be able to update a UDT in my PLC program then have everything that references it (including the HMI) updated by a consistency check/recompile. Maybe in SP2?

Nick

J-Ho
September 28th, 2011, 03:22 PM
So, I'm no on SP1 Update2 and I haven't had a single crash (unlike pre-SP1, which was unusable).

It's a lot more stable and I'm actually getting used to it.

If anyone is waiting for the teething period to be over, I'd say it's safe to try now. Just make sure you install SP1, Update1 and Update2. However, I believe you can install Update2 without installing Update1.

ason
October 5th, 2011, 06:26 AM
You guys who have tried TIA Portal for a while,
what do you think is the smallest screen you can have on the laptop to be able to program onsite,
To day i use a 14" and works good with Step 7 5.5 and wincc 2008.

Going to order a new laptop soon

TurpoUrpo
October 5th, 2011, 06:54 AM
You guys who have tried TIA Portal for a while,
what do you think is the smallest screen you can have on the laptop to be able to program onsite,
To day i use a 14" and works good with Step 7 5.5 and wincc 2008.

Going to order a new laptop soon

Make sure you get it with high resolution, not some crappy 1366 x 768 or 1440 x 900. You really need high one, like 1600x900.

Its just that there is not much 14" with high screen resolutions (Lenovo ThinkPad T420s is one I found with quick search)..

Also important is cpu power & ram, SSD is a must if you want any joy of usage.

J-Ho
October 6th, 2011, 12:41 PM
I have a Lenovo Thinkpad W500. 15" screen @ 1680x1050 and it's pretty good.

I find that the more I use TIA Portal, however, the more I am getting used to the screen/window management functions. By default, the layout is cluttered - your main working window is cramped in by the project tree to the left, the library/catalog to the right and the properties window underneath. However, you can simply press the "maximize" button and make your current working window full screen while you work on it and return to the default view once you're done.

It's not that big a deal, just requires getting used to.

stplanken
October 7th, 2011, 05:44 PM
Anyone ran into the problem of basic I/O modules not being supported by v11? We were pushed towards the TIA path, only to find out that Siemens decided to drop support for older modules. We're talking even basic I/O modules for which only the newer revisions are supported. How difficult would it have been to include some older revision numbers for a basic DO or DI card. Talking about marketing.

JRW
October 7th, 2011, 06:24 PM
Can you give an example
If you put in the newer numbered modules and downlload
What happens?

stplanken
October 7th, 2011, 06:34 PM
"Cannot migrate module DO16xAC120V/0.5A (6ES7 322-1EH01-0AA0) in rack 0, slot 4. The module is not supported."
"Cannot migrate module CP 342-5 (6GK7 342-5DA01-0XE0) in rack 0, slot 10. The module is not supported."

I have dozens and dozens of these modules that aren't supported. Some, slightly newer revisions, are supported. It looks like there is an arbitrary cutoff date. Anything older is simply not supported. Thus, TIA is great but if you need to maintain existing installations it may be less than useful. Thankfully, the existing Step 7 5.5 and Flex 2008 are still there, saves me from reverting to a backup.

stplanken
October 7th, 2011, 06:37 PM
I forgot to mention that the migration is canceled after these errors. Even without using the hardware config (there is a check box for that on the migration screen) I get these: "The migration must be aborted because the project uses a project-wide alarm number system. Please switch to a CPU-wide system and restart the migration." I am not using any alarms, there are no HMI's in this particular system.

Looks like I will be sticking to 5.5.

geniusintraining
October 7th, 2011, 08:48 PM
I was told that V12 will support the older mod's and it will be out in May, I am starting to like the software...

stplanken
October 7th, 2011, 11:01 PM
The software definitely has some nice features. But for Siemens to blatantly drop support for hardware that is not that old is absurd. I mean, no support for the 318 CPU? Really?

But where did you get the information on v12 from, if you don't mind me asking. It sounds at least mildly hopeful.

geniusintraining
October 8th, 2011, 06:29 AM
But for Siemens to blatantly drop support for hardware that is not that old is absurd

They are not going to stop Step7 (5.5) for years

where did you get the information on v12 from

Went here...

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=66725

Mrslipmat
February 27th, 2012, 03:53 AM
Ok guys I finally took the plunge and started using the TIA portal software last night on my training rig. I have S7 Professional v11 sp1 update 1 running along side WinCC Professional v11 sp1...

So far I think the screen is very cluttered but the first problem i,ve come accross is in the online menu, I can,t upload from the device into a new project, I can,t upload to my PG/PC and I can,t detect hardware.. I can however set a new project up and download it to the hardware with no problems... The hardware is a 1212 ac/dc/rly version 1.0 processor.... in laymans terms alot of the menus in the online tree are not clickable !! Anybody else had this problem ? I,ve trierd to do it as per the online help but the menus stay the same....

I can do it in Simatic manager no problem, create a project and then upload to PG/PC.. so why not in the new portal software, Is this a bug, or are these disabled for a reason being that they are pretty critical and basic parts of the software....

Regards

John V

wazzajnr
March 20th, 2012, 05:39 PM
John V, Get the CPU flashed to V2.2 and i'm guessing most of your problems will be solved.
Don't buy the MMC card though. Although siemens officially won't flash the CPU for you, a quick call to your local support centre will gett results especially if you're threatening to go to AB!!!!

Venkata Suresh
March 21st, 2012, 10:18 AM
To Jhon V

For time being these are disabled in current versions of software in later versions this will be provided

Eric Nelson
March 21st, 2012, 11:22 AM
...the first problem i,ve come accross is in the online menu, I can,t upload from the device into a new project, I can,t upload to my PG/PC and I can,t detect hardware.. I can however set a new project up and download it to the hardware with no problems... The hardware is a 1212 ac/dc/rly version 1.0 processor.... in laymans terms alot of the menus in the online tree are not clickable !! Anybody else had this problem ? I,ve trierd to do it as per the online help but the menus stay the same....

I can do it in Simatic manager no problem, create a project and then upload to PG/PC.. so why not in the new portal software, Is this a bug, or are these disabled for a reason being that they are pretty critical and basic parts of the software....
Not sure if it's the same issue you're having, but I posted about how to upload in TIA Portal a while back...

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showpost.php?p=401230&postcount=7

:beerchug:

-Eric

Venkata Suresh
March 22nd, 2012, 02:47 AM
Eric,

The video is showing TIA basic Version which supports only 1200 PLC... Yes in basic we can do upload station

Professional is one which supports all types of PLC's, still work is in progress for this, upload station will be provided in later versions... :)

orense
July 24th, 2012, 02:44 AM
Hello,

Has anybody done any advanced graphic implementation in the HMI part of the TIA portal?
We use a 12" Comfort panel and are planning to find a graphical layout.
However, after going through the library in the TIA portal, we did not find any impressive symbols. Other manufacturers seem to have more features, while the Siemens library seems to look just like their WinCC Flexible library.
Am I missing something? Did anybody try to import any symbols made in other applications?


Brg
Andreas

brendan.buchan
April 19th, 2013, 06:43 PM
Holy ****.. how slow is this software?

I've been trying to do a simple task of uploading from an S7-1200 PLC, changing the CPU from STOP to RUN mode (has gone out on a fault condition), change hardware settings so that it transitions to RUN mode on every startup, and I've been here for an hour and a half so far.

This is ridiculous. The amount of freezing and crashes I've had while trying to do simple things online makes using this software unbearable.

I'm sitting here now typing this as I wait for the uploading of the program blocks to finish which has been 5 min and counting now (direct Ethernet connection to PLC)...

Also, why is there no option to simply upload the whole project from the PLC?

I can do a compare of my offline project to the online, but the only action it lets me select for conflicting parts is "Download to PLC". Why can't I upload?

Arghhh.. so frustrating, this would have taken me 5 minutes using AB or Omron software.

The hardware may be excellent and competitively priced, but I'm looking forward to never having to deal with these systems ever again.

Running Step 7 Basic V11 SP4 for anyone who cares.

Edit: Wow, just alt-tabbed back to TIA Portal to check on the status of the upload and TIA Portal has experienced an error and will now restart.

BRB, off to go kill myself.

Eric Nelson
April 19th, 2013, 06:54 PM
I can do a compare of my offline project to the online, but the only action it lets me select for conflicting parts is "Download to PLC". Why can't I upload?You can... Scroll up a few posts and see my link. Of course, it would make more sense to just have an 'upload' choice readily available, but that would be too easy... :rolleyes:

But I wholeheartedly agree that TIA Portal is rubbish!... :boo:

:beerchug:

-Eric

Eric Nelson
April 19th, 2013, 07:02 PM
Oh, and when I start this software, it likes to hang at the splash screen. It loads up behind the splash screen, yet the splash screen never goes away, so I can't use it. I have to use task manager to kill it and restart. A few tries later and it 'magically' loads properly.

I'm running it in a VM (XPProSP3) with nothing but POS Portal er, I mean TIA Portal installed.

:beerchug:

-Eric

brendan.buchan
April 19th, 2013, 07:17 PM
You can... Scroll up a few posts and see my link. Of course, it would make more sense to just have an 'upload' choice readily available, but that would be too easy... :rolleyes:

But I wholeheartedly agree that TIA Portal is rubbish!... :boo:

:beerchug:

-Eric

Sorry Eric, but we must be using different versions of software or something.

I searched and found your post when I was having issues, but I only have the choice to download, not upload after doing a compare.

Ridiculous.

The only way I seem to be able to upload is to browse to the device online, then drag and drop the Project Blocks folder from the online folder, to the offline folder in my project.

Still can't find a way to upload the hardware config (gee, an "Upload Project or ALL" feature would be handy right about now...)

Eric Nelson
April 19th, 2013, 07:25 PM
That's odd... I created that PDF using V10.5 basic, but I recently performed the exact same operation on a customer's laptop that was running V11 Pro (not sure which SP), and it worked.

Thankfully I documented the steps in that PDF, 'cause I forgot how to do it... :lolis:

:beerchug:

-Eric

Homer_BL
April 19th, 2013, 07:31 PM
Brendan,

be aware that in 99%, project that was opened in moment of TIA crush, WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE TO OPEN AGAIN :(

Saving every 5 minutes, using different project names is reccomended.

Venkata Suresh
September 19th, 2013, 04:43 AM
Upload of hardware device is not supporting in V11 and V12.... we can see this option from V13 onwards..

Venkata Suresh
September 19th, 2013, 04:44 AM
which version on TIA you are using ?

Kataeb
October 22nd, 2014, 02:11 AM
nice thread !