Indusoft vs WonderWare

I am designing a system to replace a 1960's designed control room and the users want a slick HMI. This will replace a control console w/ toggle switches and lamps. All actuation will be manual by operator mouse clicks (or touchscreen) and status indicators will be on the PC screen. This is for slow "facility" controls. We have a separate sequenced test controller with custom graphical interface. There is no need to log operator actions or store data in a database, though might be used if simple to setup.

I could write a simple program in VB.net such as a grid with valves to click and boxes that change color for status, but the guys want prettier graphics with PI charts and tank figures, and something they can modify. The PLC is Beckhoff Automation, which is supported by Indusoft (IS), WonderWare (WW), and several others. Our Beckhoff salesman recommends IS from ease of use and low cost, but says WW has a bit more functionality. My guys know WW simply from seeing it in use at a government facility (A-B Contrologix), but have never used it or looked at alternates. Choosing Indusoft would be a little uphill since any glitches (certain) will bring derisive "why not WW" comments.

So far, I poked around on the WW site and found little about any PLC's. They seem to push just their new enterprise solutions. I have also read that since Invensys bought them they have changed. In contrast, the IS site is very informative, they have excellent videos, and the sales engineer was very knowledgeable and helpful. The software seems very modern, allowing arrays and structures to link to PLC variables concisely and graphics that can morph to fit many field objects. The price is reasonable, with no mandatory annual fees.

You can see I am already biased, but mainly because I find almost no info on WW. Is it a stealth product? It seems IS can do everything I can manage in the alloted development time (a few weeks?), and managers haven't even started hacking the budget, so any extra features in WW would likely go unused. What are other's experience with Indusoft and WonderWare, particularly those who have used both? Is there a better choice than those for my application? I reviewed Archie's AdvancedHMI, but it currently looks like just a starting point for custom code.

If the users want a slick HMI that boots and is in control in under ten seconds after power up, then get a G3 and learn Crimson 3.0

If the integrator (you?) are stuck on using PC technology for your definition of "slick" then I would look hard at Ignition by Inductive Automation. It, being java based and multi-OS supportive by design, still gives you a lot of flexibility. I think my buddy at work has gotten it to run on a "zero client" little box in the office. I have not dabbled in it yet.

I have not used recent wonderware, but found it easy to learn with the one old version I edited five years ago.

iFix has been very solid, but it took a bit of learning to navigate a rather complex communications and database set up done by others on my systems. I don't like the way I have to edit text in objects either, but once I finally get things how I want them, it runs and runs, no hangups, no lockups, even survives occasional brownouts and GFCI trips and comes right back up running.

We will definitely use PC's for the Operator interface, since it will be a sit-down, monitor at desk type of control room, a small scale version of a NASA launch facility. We will not clone the design widely, as a machine designer would, so unit cost is less important than development cost and flexibility. My role is as an in-house integrator, a bit harder than an outsider with a contract would have since requirements constantly change with many people blind-siding me with "must do this" and "can't do that".

Several people on plctalk rave about Ignition by Inductive Automation. From their website it appears I would need at least their Vision Module which starts at $3500 and there are many add-ons, with little direction as to what is needed. Some claim that WonderWare can be a horror story of costly add-ons and Ignition appears similar at first look. In contrast, the complete Indusoft development package is ~$1100 w/ no annual fees.

From my vague understanding, OPC is a generic "database query" type of interface to many PLC's and factory devices. I don't know if it requires file I/O, but doesn't sound guaranteed fast. From a Visual Basic program I can interact with Beckhoff TwinCAT via dll type calls, which goes thru RAM. The only delays are in Windows itself. It appears that Indusoft interfaces similarly using "native drivers" to Beckhoff or A-B Contrologix. I don't want an operator to click a button and the OPC link takes time to make it happen, or to deal with configuration issues in OPC, so Indusoft seems smart from that angle.

I heard of iFix, but sounds like a very high-cost item, maybe for a large factory, chemical plant or refinery.

fi you will not be doing any trending or storing of data, I believe you could use the ignition panel edition which is free.

https://www.inductiveautomation.com/products/ignition/visionpanel/download

you would still need a opc server that communicates with beckhoff though, as ignition does not have drivers for that protocol.

If you want single node capability (no database, just the Vision module on your PLC network) I believe you can have one free node on their OPC UA server which appears to be very responsive in our tests so far.

We are getting the database module too, spending <$5k IIRC, but haven't deployed any Vision modules yet, only the database stuff which Mike converted from FTSQL to Ignition in about a week, having taken months getting it set up originallly, so we are live with that part of the switch already, still using FTView Standalone 5.0 for three HMI stations that are probably going to go away once we get used to the vision editor.

So you can test run Ignition free (standalone with [one?] PLC), and then if you want to add a server and be able to share a database, use more nodes, etc, you just upgrade to that price level.

Hi,

PeakHMI would work using MODBUS TCP.

Indusoft has a larger installed base than one would expect because it targets OEMs. Most users of Indusoft don't have a clue that it's Indusoft because it isn't apparent. I know of 3 instrumentation vendors who use Indusoft as their HMI.

I sat through a one day class 3-4 years ago because of a proposed affiliation (that never materialized) and it appeared then that Indusoft was driving towards web based client displays.

>Is WW a stealth product?
No. Every 3rd place I go into seems to use Wonderware. Big installed base. They probably will be around in 10 years.

OkiePC said:

If you want single node capability (no database, just the Vision module on your PLC network) I believe you can have one free node on their OPC UA server which appears to be very responsive in our tests so far.

We are getting the database module too, spending <$5k IIRC, but haven't deployed any Vision modules yet, only the database stuff which Mike converted from FTSQL to Ignition in about a week, having taken months getting it set up originallly, so we are live with that part of the switch already, still using FTView Standalone 5.0 for three HMI stations that are probably going to go away once we get used to the vision editor.

So you can test run Ignition free (standalone with [one?] PLC), and then if you want to add a server and be able to share a database, use more nodes, etc, you just upgrade to that price level.

Click to expand...

Yeah, We picked up the full works package, but we're using it across 20+ nodes, So the cost is quite reasonable.

Ignition's panel edition is not limited by tags nor number of PLCs AFAIK. I'm using panel edition with 8 PLCs and around 500 tags. The OPC-UA server is free and fully functional to anyone. If you need OPC-DA or SQL bridge, you'd need to pay for that. The panel edition of the vision module limits you to one seat.

That said, I give a +1 to Ignition based upon my experience with it.

Shawn

I am also giving a +1 to Ignition.

Specially because it now has connectivity with all Allen Bradley's Ethernet Controllers (CompactLogix, ControlLogix, MicroLogix 1100/1400, PLC5, SLCs, Modbus v2 (which now include Modbus TCP and Modbus RTU Over TCP), Siemens Ethernet PLCs (S7-1200, S7-300, S7-400) and even custom TCP and UDP Devices! (IP Cameras, Bar-code scanners, etc).

I setup and used the Modbus TCP driver to communicate to GE PLCs and Automation Direct PLCs at a Tomato Processing Facility in Modesto, Ca and it works flawlessly!

I used to be a wonderware guy (specially after version 10), but now Ignition has changed that.

I am also using the OPC-UA to communicate with a MicroLogix 1000 through a 1761-NET-ENI. You set it up using the ML1100/1400 driver. The only lost functionality is that you cannot 'browse' the PLC so you need to manually enter all of your tag addresses. I have not tried this setup with any other of the ML family but I imagine that it would work for them as well.

Shawn

A MicroLogix 1000?? are those guys still around? haha j/k by the way, my boss introduced me to an 1761-NET-ENI alternative, the WebPort Ethernet Gateway. Very powerful and it works very good with DF1 serial based PLCs like Micrologix 1000, 1200 and 1500. It also has a bunch of other protocols and functions that I haven't had a chance to play with.

RocketTester - "small scale NASA launch facility"? That sounds sweet! Out of curiosity - who are the people you're working with that feed you the "must do this" and "can't do that" requirements? I would imagine that sort of project to be have well defined and documented requirements. I guess they're just like everyone else...

OPC doesn't really have anything to do with database queries per se. It's more of a standard API to make device requests (ie bit/word/array reads or writes, subscriptions, etc). It will be simpler than direct communication (if you're programming your own app) and allows you to be compatible with a wide range of devices. You'll need an "OPC Server", which is more like a driver that knows how to communicate with devices. I would classify OPC as "fast", but it really depends on what order of magnitude you require. You may or may not even need to go with OPC in the first place for this type of application.

You really need to consider what your requirements are. As a rule of thumb, you will likely save yourself a lot of: time, money, and effort (if your time isn't free) by going with any vendor's product that meets your requirements. This needs to be much more detailed then "look slick" and "support a Beckhoff PLC". If nobody can do what you need, then that's the only time I would roll your own. If multiple vendors can, then you have lots of options based on preference.

RocketTester said:

We will definitely use PC's for the Operator interface, since it will be a sit-down, monitor at desk type of control room, a small scale version of a NASA launch facility. We will not clone the design widely, as a machine designer would, so unit cost is less important than development cost and flexibility. My role is as an in-house integrator, a bit harder than an outsider with a contract would have since requirements constantly change with many people blind-siding me with "must do this" and "can't do that".

Several people on plctalk rave about Ignition by Inductive Automation. From their website it appears I would need at least their Vision Module which starts at $3500 and there are many add-ons, with little direction as to what is needed. Some claim that WonderWare can be a horror story of costly add-ons and Ignition appears similar at first look. In contrast, the complete Indusoft development package is ~$1100 w/ no annual fees.

From my vague understanding, OPC is a generic "database query" type of interface to many PLC's and factory devices. I don't know if it requires file I/O, but doesn't sound guaranteed fast. From a Visual Basic program I can interact with Beckhoff TwinCAT via dll type calls, which goes thru RAM. The only delays are in Windows itself. It appears that Indusoft interfaces similarly using "native drivers" to Beckhoff or A-B Contrologix. I don't want an operator to click a button and the OPC link takes time to make it happen, or to deal with configuration issues in OPC, so Indusoft seems smart from that angle.

I heard of iFix, but sounds like a very high-cost item, maybe for a large factory, chemical plant or refinery.

Click to expand...

RocketTester said:

I could write a simple program in VB.net such as a grid with valves to click and boxes that change color for status, but the guys want prettier graphics with PI charts and tank figures, and something they can modify. The PLC is Beckhoff Automation, which is supported by Indusoft (IS), WonderWare (WW), and several others. Our Beckhoff salesman recommends IS from ease of use and low cost, but says WW has a bit more functionality. My guys know WW simply from seeing it in use at a government facility (A-B Contrologix), but have never used it or looked at alternates. Choosing Indusoft would be a little uphill since any glitches (certain) will bring derisive "why not WW" comments.

I reviewed Archie's AdvancedHMI, but it currently looks like just a starting point for custom code.

Click to expand...

If graphics is the main reason for going with a full blown HMI package versus VB, I think you will find that many of the HMI's use the same graphics package, Symbol Factory, which can also be used in a VB.NET application.

The free version of AdvancedHMI gives enough components to build simple HMIs and lays the ground work to allow fairly easy creation of custom objects for those familiar with VB. For those not, we all the time we create custom graphics and components for customers that want things not available in the generic off the shelf graphics packages.

shawn_75 said:

Ignition's panel edition is not limited by tags nor number of PLCs AFAIK. I'm using panel edition with 8 PLCs and around 500 tags. The OPC-UA server is free and fully functional to anyone. If you need OPC-DA or SQL bridge, you'd need to pay for that. The panel edition of the vision module limits you to one seat.

That said, I give a +1 to Ignition based upon my experience with it.

Shawn

Click to expand...

Thanks, Shawn, for correcting my earlier mis-statement. Panel Edition...that's the free ticket, huh? I should use that with this cute little Click at home.

Paul