OT-Student Help

i notice that it comes in spurts.
i see posts from students who what their homework handed to them on a platter, showing no work.

other times, i see posts of homework where the student posts their work.

we will help with homework only after the student has put forth an effort and will show his work.

i learned my programming mostly the hard way, ojt.
that's the way everyone has to do it eventually.

regards,
james

I've also seen posts from frustrated students who apparently have lazy teachers ("Just Google It") using out of date texts with no actual instruction. I feel for them.

My education was - a stack of manuals dropped on my desk with the requirement of a program in 2 months. This was "pre-internet" if you younger folks can imagine that (yes - still dodging dinosaurs on the way to work). A lot of late night reading at home. But I made it. Looking back now I not so proud of the result but it worked.

We've become a "gimme" society in a lot of respects. Knowledge used to be handed down from generation to generation, with each adding their new ideas, inventions, processes and results to the last. Slowly and surely the internet has become the instructor now (in a lot of cases) and the web is INSTANT to a large degree. If you want to find a light bulb for a '98 GMC truck, Google that thing.

Now add a forum, like this one, to the web where the aforementioned knowledge can be handed away for free, kinda like the old days, and watch what happens. For some unknown reason, SOME people who need help think they have a RIGHT to that knowledge--as if they were at a school they paid for instead of a forum of generous people.

I found Phil's site out of a need in early 2003. I asked for and received the help I needed and have asked for additional assistance several times since. As a thanks, although Phil gets no financial benefit, I return when I can to see if I can return the favor to others.

I still try to work things out myself before it gets to the point I have to ask for help. THAT HELPS ME TO BECOME A BETTER TECHNICIAN THAN I WAS YESTERDAY!!

But not everyone does it the way I do and that's neither right nor wrong.

I agree with what both of you.

This is fast beconning a gimmie world.
My oldest son hasn't got a clue how to look things up in a dictionary or an encyclopedia, or do sinple math on paper. The school doesn't make him do things the old fashioned way by teaching them how to do it. he has no clue how i can work math problems so easily without a calculator.

A bit off the topic, but i think the statements are correct.

Back to the topic.
Anyone who needs help, whether a student needs help with homework or anyone in the workplace that needs help will get it from those of us who are members. There may be the ocassional question on how to do something that is so off the wall that we recognize that something dosen't add up and do not help.

All we ask is that the one who posts the topic try and solve the problem first. i posted asking for help on a fifo and got lots of good advice and with your help, i got the program working.

having the answer handed to you on a silver platter does you no good, you do not learn anything.

regards,
james

I seem to remember something about giving a man a fish versus teaching him how to fish. I guess I better go Google it.

If you're lucky...,

you have an E&I manager, like I had back in the early 90's. I owe my career to him. I'd ask him a question, and he would never answer it, but he would say

"The answer to your question is here. I't might be in one of the 50 or so books in those cabinets out there, or it might walk passed you on the way to lunch, and wave at you. Find the answer!".

He also told me "effort and determination is more important then brains and education".

Like I said, "I'f your lucky..."

James Mcquade said:

I agree with what both of you.

This is fast beconning a gimmie world.
My oldest son hasn't got a clue how to look things up in a dictionary or an encyclopedia, or do sinple math on paper. The school doesn't make him do things the old fashioned way by teaching them how to do it. he has no clue how i can work math problems so easily without a calculator.

A bit off the topic, but i think the statements are correct.

Back to the topic.
Anyone who needs help, whether a student needs help with homework or anyone in the workplace that needs help will get it from those of us who are members. There may be the ocassional question on how to do something that is so off the wall that we recognize that something dosen't add up and do not help.

All we ask is that the one who posts the topic try and solve the problem first. i posted asking for help on a fifo and got lots of good advice and with your help, i got the program working.

having the answer handed to you on a silver platter does you no good, you do not learn anything.

regards,
james

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When I was in high school (00-04) the internet could only be ONE source on your paper, the rest had to be books and encyclopedias. Computers were mainly used for the double spacing, spell check, and better way of printing vs a typewriter. Times have changed. College was a breeze research paper wise. There was almost no excuse for not having them done.

On the member to member help, even then posting logic seems to be an unwritten rule amongst men(women?).

Actually, I despair.

<rant>

I learned about computers by BUILDING a computer, albeit a hobby kit at home, in my living room (much to the consternation of a patient wife). Admittedly, the 8080 did pack a lot of power into one chip. But to interface power, memory, I/O took a lot of research and, later, understanding. Interfacing 5 volt computation to 24 volt and higher power systems took a lot of work. But because of that, unpaid, struggle I somewhat understand access times and data width and instruction times. Implementing early control systems with a bare microprocessor, using assembly language, writing all the system procedures, gave an understanding which made transition to PLCs relatively easy ... all the hard work was done by the maker of the PLC!

But when I approach a new project I have all that history and I naturally use that understanding in building new systems. The next generation has NONE of that! The new users of PLCs have NONE of this background that I, and many others, take for granted. Others may have arrived at this understanding by different paths. But hand soldering the points of a DIP package with associated decoupling capacitors gives an understanding which is so ingrained that it is hard to imagine that the next generation does not have that knowledge, we worked so hard to obtain, already built in.

The new PLC programmers need to have basic computer operation, electrical, electronic, pneumatic, hydraulic, mechanical understanding already behind them before they ever touch a keyboard to program a PLC. Teach them basic flow control and state logic before ever letting them near a PLC.

And teach them to READ BOOKS!, or at least PDF's. Yeah, those actual things made of pages! READ about a system before attempting to use it! Learn about OHM's LAW for example. The makers of these instructional system have as much to blame. Have some per-requisites for goodness sakes!

I invite all to cast me as an "old-school" throw back. But I think some understanding of the underlying principles are necessary before jumping into control technology. Admittedly, I 'fell in to it'. I had no idea what I was learning. The hobby computers were a fun thing to play with. I made randomly flashing Christmas Lights and played Yahtzee! But, did I get an education, without even realizing it! A voltmeter and an oscilloscope with those relatively low frequency computers gave so much understanding.

Maybe we "old-schoolers" can be tapped as a source of understanding of what it takes to make a proficient PLC programmer.

(/rant)

I had to build a basic calculator from chips, jumper wires, and bread boards and a print out of what the chips did(and,or,nand,nor,xor,xnor) it was a truly sobering thought that it took me the good part of 3 class periods(5 hours each) to build something that can be bought for a dollar....

I got my first real electronics technician job back in 1967, with very little practical knowledge. An old engineer I worked for taught me so many things, just because he liked to help people. I never forgot, and even though I retired more than 3 years ago, I still like to pay it forward by helping others willing to learn when I can.

When I was in high school (00-04) the internet could only be ONE source on your paper,...

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Ha! Noob, When I was in high school, I was in the more progressive class and learned to type on a manual (non-electric) typewriter. The Internet was a science-fiction dream in Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein novels. The school library did have one set of encyclopedias, for year 1945 (I read all about WWII). Most of the books I was able to read were ones I checked out from the BookMobile (traveling library), which brought different books to the little Mom-and-Pop grocery store once every 3 months. These were a real pleasure in the snowy days of winter.

Bernie, imho that's definitely NOT a rant; it's the way of natural progression as one incrementally gains an understanding of the subject. You start with a battery and a bulb and end up with factories and servos - what a journey. Re good ole discrete ic's and breadboard: the range of logic ic's available these days is a shadow of what was there in say, the 80's, so for those wanting to learn literally bit-by-bit, the significantly reduced pool of hardware on offer represents quite a reduction in the size of the playground.

When I was a kid my club house was a computer crate about 8'x10' if I recall. I remember my dad trading our pool table for a TI calculator, first on the market!! he worked there using a slide rule to do most his work. As a kid I learned to build circuit boards for advanced controls before PLCs were around. Sadly I did not have much interest in these things and it was years later that I taught myself how to program PLCs. my first computer was a K-PRO if I had only known the things my dad was trying to teach me.... WOW how the world has changed!!!!!!