Server Virtualization for Rockwell Products

For a new project, I'm thinking of using virtual servers (VSphere, ESXi , I need someone to expalin the differences if any) instead of individual servers. I'm currently using Worksation 8.0 for developemnt purposes on my laptop.

I'm planning on running FTView SE Networked without redundancy for the time being, and FTView Historian SE. What are some of the advantages to using a virutal server vs. individual ones? Is there a cost savings involved too? I know I'll lose some of the redundancy built in by using discrete server hardware. Also what server specs. would be required to implement this? I'm thinking of some sort of RAID and redundant power supplies. What else? Which of the VMware packages to use? Thanks!

Here's something we prepared for a similar question - the question included "how to do client virtualization too" - which should answer most of your question.

First the server side stuff - vSphere is what you're looking for. On VMware's site - products -> datacenter -> vsphere:
Here's a good picture of the VMware family of products and how they stack and co-exist:
http://www.vmware.com/files/images/...erprise-Hybrid-Cloud-Overview-104-900x740.png

For the physical server you install VMware ESXi Hypervisor (which is actually free). Then to get the nice management tools and HA and ability to migrate running VM's requires vSphere. There are two *reasonably* priced vSphere kits - Essentials and Essentials Plus - just skip right to the plus version. Regular is pretty much just vCenter server for management tools for up to 3 physical servers, Plus adds HA, vMotion, and Data recovery. If they really want to pinch pennies they could just install the free ESXi hypervisor to virtualize on the server now and purchase vSphere Essentials Plus kit with second physical server purchase - changing ESXi from free to purchased is just a license key change on the fly. Lastly two recommendations: we have had both VMware direct support and OEM provided VMware support - I would choose direct from VMware if possible even though it is more expensive than OEM; second - if you are going to buy an Essentials kit and don't expect to upgrade to Standard or Advanced VMware in the near future make sure you buy the max GHz's/ 6 cores / 2 processors in your servers so that you can maximize the Essentials license without replacing your servers (Essentials has a limit on processors/cores per server) - memory also but that is easier to add later and is also limited by the Essentials license.
http://www.vmware.com/products/datacenter-virtualization/vsphere/small-business/essentials-kits.html

Desktops - there are a couple ways to do this. The cheap(er) way and the right way
Now for the confusing part - for ViewSE clients virtualized you want to use VMware View . Here's a good graphic of the environment:
http://www.vmware.com/files/images/screens_view/VMware-View-Diagram-large.jpg

I just talked to VMware because I wanted to know more about the Desktops side of this (we have considered going there at some point also). VMware View can be purchased as an add-on to the vSphere Essentials Kits for around 90/seat. Minimum increments of 10. You can also purchase View Bundle which has it's own version of vSphere for Desktops - 150/seat min 10. There are reasons to choose bundle over add-on that are a factor depending upon size of deployment - we can discuss on the phone if you want.
Client PC - I would look at something like a Wyse thin client or some sort of zero client like Pano Logic or Samsung PCoIP clients. Pros and cons for all of them. When buying a client even if not buying a thin client keep in mind there are different licensing requirements for MS Windows. There needs to be a MS Windows license for each Desktop VM and if the client is a regular PC then it may need a regular Windows license also. I can explain more if you need.
http://www.vmware.com/products/view/howtobuy.html

Thanks for the very detailed info. I'm sure I'll have more questions after reading the links you provided. I'm only thinking about virtualizing on the server side. What level of server hardware would you tink is necessary for this?

Jkerekes
the reply was from my IT guy. we had done what you are asking about and it has been quite robust.
Are you going to RsTech Ed? we will be presenting on our project.

Unfortunately no. But I think that Rockwell publishes much of the stuff online. I will try to go to Automation Fair this year since it's in Philly. Thanks again!

John

vMotion is your friend BUT there's a catch. vMotion requires shared storage. If you're not planning on having a shared SAN, You can go ahead and skip vMotion since it won't work.

I use EXSI and Citrix Xen. If you want redundancy then Xen is you best choice which is also free. To do redundancy we use Marathon Everun http://www.marathontechnologies.com/everRun_product_demos.html

Marathon provides zero loss failover meaning your process and users never know a server went down. It even works when the servers are in different physical locations such as you offsite disaster recovery location or another plant.

Everun is licensed per physical server and will handle all the virtual servers you metal can run.

Vm Ware has HA ( High Availibility ) but it is not zero loss as it will startup the second server once it see's the first server failed and this could cause problems in your process or buisness depending on what and how your virtual servers are being used.

Probably HA is enough. Going to just have SE Server and Historian. But I appriciate the other options available that you brought to my attention.

I am commissioning a new SE Distributed system right now.

It is totally virtualized using Vsphere with Vmotion. They are DEFINITELY your friend. This system is not redundant either as we felt that we had enough via the Vmotion. It consists of 2 data servers 2 HMI servers and a Terminal Server for the clients to connect to. It is a slightly different approach than the other mentioned above. The two methods have far more in common than different. We chose the Terminal Server so that patching was limited to a very small group of boxes. The thin clients/RDP boxes never have to be touched and can be swapped out by anyone as long as they know the logon credentials to the Terminal Server. This is superior in the middle of the night. I like my sleep.

This is a migration of an existing system so we will be deploying on Thick Client hardware using Terminal Services. Then as hardware is replaced/expanded we will be using thin clients on Terminal Services in the future.

This is my second SE System like this. The first was done last Winter. It IS a redundant system and also rides on Vmotion. It consisted of only two servers with Data and HMI services on each. (redundant pair)

Both of these setups are at version 6.1 running on multiple 64 bit server 2008R2 SP1.

I have been VERY happy with the Virtualized approach and would NEVER recommend anything else for SE distributed or Standalone for that matter. Disaster Recovery is unbeatable in a virtual environment and also disasters are UNLIKELY with Vmotion.

Workstation 8 is a perfect platform for initial development. Workstation 8 moved much closer in alignment with Esxi than its predecessors. The virtual hardware platforms are compatible between the two. You can also use Workstation 8 in lieu of Vsphere Client to connect to Vsphere and Esxi sessions. I have developed some of my server images at home with Workstation 8 then went on site connected to the Vcenter box and uploaded my images with no problems.

Even if you can't swing Vmotion Esxi is a winner! versus physical server deployment.

These have both been fun projects and are very stable thus far. You really need to spend a LOT of time reading all of the design documents for SE Distributed. There are a LOT of rules and pre-requisites. I would also get in touch with RA and/or your local distributor once you have a plan and get it "reviewed". They tend to be ULTRA conservative, but they do know what works. Again, this is not something you just throw together and hope for the best. Take an "Engineered Approach" or you WILL suffer much pain.

RSL

Esxi also has FT which works w/ HA, FT(Fault Tolerance) basically runs 2 copies of the same machine on different hosts and keeps them in lockstep. If you can afford the resource considerations, FT(from any vendor) is the closest you'll get to true redundancy.

Disclosure: I run the ESXI cluster at work, We have 8 nodes and 4 iScsi SANs operating in a raid 10 network setup. Alas, no fiber channel.. yet.

Well I've done several redundant SE distributed systems using discrete servers. For this upcoming project, I wanted to look at using virtual servers. I haven't heard about vMotion until now. I have a little studying to do. What kind of server hardware horsepower is required?

Depends on the number of expected virtual machines and their expected resource load.

For a single ESXI host that's expecting to run only a handful of machines, you could happily run on a low end server.

My test enviroment runs on an Ibm 3650m2 w/ 16gigs of ram and uses local storage. Happily runs 10 machines at once.

vMotion assumes you have more than one ESXI host and allows you to live migrate machines from one host to another. This allows for balancing of resource utilization between the ESXI boxes or lets you take one down for maintenance/patching/powersaving, etc.
You do need shared storage for this to work, because both hosts need to be able to 'see' the disk files(vmdks) at the same time. VMFS(the vmware filesystem for this) handles the clustering and i/o locking for the datastores.

If you're curious, VMware has a bunch of great whitepapers on the subject or you can just ask and I'll help where I can.

Thanks for the offer. And thanks to everyone who answered. I'm just an automation engineer, not really an IT guy, but I'm trying to learn. I think I'll just keep it to an ESXi system without the vMotion. I'm still confused on all the packages VMware offers. I need to study their website tomorrow.

Does Rockwell support Virtualization? Our IT group have been pushing virtual servers, I see their point but I can't buy into it because some of the vendors we deal with don't support server virtualization on all the products. I have had a counter part of mine call in for support, the first question they ask is what is your platform and O/S. He said VMware and they basically hung up... lol.

Jkerekes good luck with your project. Let me know how your project turns out... definitely interested.