laminate two fabrics

irondesk40

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Jan 2008
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nc
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Have a project we are looking at that will be as follows.
There will be a roll of fabric that will be fed through a conveyor system that will use a set of Nip rollers to pull the fabric through. The fabric will be pulled from the roll and then a chemical will be sprayed onto the fabric. After the fabric is sprayed the first, or bottom roll of fabric will then have another roll of fabric that will be laminated to it by being pulled through the same set of Nip rollers. The second roll of top layer of the fabric will be driven by some type of motor to ensure that when it is pulled through the nip rollers that it is running the same speed as the bottom roll of fabric. The chemical that is being sprayed will cause a chemical reaction to occur and the two types of fabric will be laminated together.
I am looking at using a Allen bradley Micrologix 1400 drive to send a 4-20 ma speed reference to the Nip rollers that will be scaled to be 0-10 yards per minute.
I have looked at the Yaskawa A1000 drive and looking at possibly using it in closed loop vector control and then use the pulse signal out of that drive controlling the nip rollers to be in the input reference signal input on the second Yaskawa A1000 drive that will be controlling the top roll as they are fed together through the nip rollers.
If anyone has had any experience with this type of application could you possibly share it? I have done feed conveyors with fabric and controlled the speed of it through drying chambers etc. using Yaskawa drives and dancer switches to trim and maintain the desired speed and tension, but have never tried to mate two pieces of fabric feeding off of rolls together.
Does how I am looing at this make sense, or I am way off base.
Thanks
 
Use Siemens drives and i will help you :)
Didnt you bring this up in March?
Sounds like your concerned

Do you have a picture of some sort?
 
No, not trolling at all ,I was just messing with him
He did this same topic a couple of months ago

you are not messing with me. Most likely just as you work in a enviroment where projects can change on a weekly basis and yes I did ask about this a couple of months ago, but in the time between then and now we had about a hundred more pressing items to come up according to our VP who tells us what to concentrate on.
Now to get back to this, I have not done a laminate type project, am I concerned, no, just trying to possibly get enough info from folks who use this site that may have experience with this type of thing and more than willing to help others, which is what I assumed this site was about.
This now as of today is a official project. The reason it is Yaskawa is because the VP says it will be Yaskawa. I have attached a quick pdf with a layout that was handed to me and at the moment the only info I have. I have thought about driving the Nip rollers with a 40-20ma signal from a Allen Bradley Micrologix 1400 (also determined by the fact we have a couple thousand of them world wide so changing is not really a option) to run the desired line speed after it has been determined how to scale it according to motor gears etc.. At the moment the boss does not think we will need to power drive the Fabric 2 motor but only the NIPS and the take up rollers cradle at the end where the cradle motor will be power driven.
Now here is where I am unsure of best approach. Would it be best to set the nip(master) drive up as the slave and feed a output of it to the input of the drive controlling the take up cradle rollers, or send a individual 4-20ma to each drive.
Also, I am uncertain at this moment that the Fabric 2 material will be mated up properly with Fabric 1 if Fabric 2 is not power driven. If it is determined that it needs to be power driven, again would it be best to slave it to the Nips or send it a seperate 4-20ma signal. Also, in my mind I think we would need to mount dancer type switches and use them to trim the speed if needed to keep the tension correct.
Again, thanks for any advice.
 
maybe I'm just missing it but I'm not seeing the PDF... A quick question: by "Nip rollers" do you mean a set of rollers that are really close together to apply pressure to the fabric? If so, we call them Calendars and use a few of those followed by a short cooling line and varying sizes of rolls to roll up the fabric... this sound about right?
 
On a similar setup to yours we use an encoder (with a small wheel on it running on the fabric) as speed reference to the Nip rollers and the master speed is determined by the "Cradle" with the cradle running just a little faster to keep everything tensioned. IF tension is important, a guide roller can be equipped with a strain gauge which can be used to trim the difference in speed between the Nip and Cradle motors.

Hope that helps
A353322
 
Thanks
Yes the nip rollers are mounted so that a air cylinder energizes and pulls these roller together to provide tension. I had looked at it as the nips being the master and the cradle rollers at the end as the slave, but after your description it does appear that it may be best if the cradle was the master and the nips the slave. the only thing is that whenever the cradle gets full and has to be unloaded we will go into what we call Doff mode, which means the Nips will keep on running and pulling and pushing fabric and the fabric will then accumulate in the area right before the cradle so that they can take the roll off and put on a new shaft for the next batch to wound around. The whole lenght of this is only about 12 feet. I will attempt to attach a link to a site that has a machinie I found online that closely matches what we going to build.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/683cuo31q2mzosp/00083.MTS
 
ah, we use a switch that tells the rest of the machine to run at a very slow speed for when the rolls need to be changed. Is that an option?
 
Yes, when you select to Doff the machine it will slow down and the cradle motor will stop. Then I am looking at mounting some type of analog dancer switch and when you come out of Doff mode and go back into run mode and you select to run 4 yards per minute, the Cradle motor will actually turn for example 5-6 yards per minute to get the accumulated fabric up and when the dance gets pulled up to a certain set point then the Cradle motor will run the same line speed as the Nips(master) motor. At the moment, looking at using the Nips as the master since the Cradle will stop from time to time and use the output from the Nips drive into the input of the Craddle drive. The best that I can tell you enter some parameters in the slave drive to tell it the motor speed,gear ratio, pulses per rev from the encoder, for example 1024 equals how much distance and then the it will follow the master. That is the part I am uncertain about at the moment, since I have not done that type of project yet, but there is a yaskawa rep coming in next week with a demo and we are going to work at accomplishing that. If anyone has any experience and may want to share how they did it would be appreciated. I plan on trying to read the manual this weekend, which I know i should have already done, but only 24 hours in a day if you know what i mean.
Thanks
 
Maybe I missed it. If so forget my question. How are You going to regulate tension? Is that dancer roll a weighted roll or will you have a rolling diaphragm air cylinder? Or if you have to much tension get rid of the dancer and use a brake. I have had good luck with both piston and magnetic particle. I preferred particle brakes because if the noise a piston (caliper) will generate.

I did a line that was gluing fiberglass matte to a plastic substrate. We used a glue pot instead of a spray roll system. I had to make it out of a bone yard of parts.
When we designed it we thought the glue pot would be the nip rolls ( Calender). We wound up spacing the top roll of the nip and let the plastic almost slide through with little friction as possible. We ran the drive in constant torque mode. The operator would handle the taper. They Where to cheap to buy an ultrasonic to taper as the roll diameter grew. Was it pretty no did it work yes.
 
The dancer rolls are weighted, at least that is what i have been told.
The yaskawa rep said he has done quite a few laminating machine very similiar to what we are trying to do. He said that in those the nip was set up as a master and the take up roller was in a craddle instead of being shaft driven. The craddle was then power driven and slaved to the master. Have used hundreds of AC drives over the years, but almost always set them up to run a speed based on a 4-20ma signal from the plc or a potentiometer, never set two drives to run in a master/slave setup.
In this project at the moment looking at sending the nips a line speed value to run and according to the rep and from what i have read you can then send a reference value from the master into the slave and in the slave you put some values in some parameters such as ppr from the encoder for a known distance, motor speed, etc. and then the slave will run the same line speed as the master. Hopefully next week will have a demo that I can actually test. Reading it in a book is good, but i learn best by actually doing it.
 
If this where one of my systems I would work out the mechanical details first. No matter what you have designed for the electrical system if the mechanical isn't done right you will right and fight with this system to get it to work half a$$ at best.
 

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