Koyo/DirectLogic Program Dilemma

[SIZE=+0]Quick rundown, I have a program that I need to reorganize the sequence on, that was not originally written by me. This machine was not wired, built, or programmed by our company, and the person who did, is MIA. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0](I wrote an ENTIRE LONG DETAILED post, and accidentally hit the back button on my keyboard, erasing EVERYTHING. So I am sorry for the attachments.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]This should be something very simple to do, and yet I can not seem to figure out where I am going wrong...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Specifications:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Koyo/Directlogic PLC - D0-05AR (8 AC in. / 6 Relay out)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]" " Discrete I/O card - F0-04TRS[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]C-More micro graphics 3" touch panel[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Here is the original machine sequence:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]1.) Operator loads parts into frame[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]2.) Press Start[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]3.) Frame moves under heating elements (for X amount of time)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]4.) Frame moves back out, when time is up[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]5.) Bottom Platen moves up (via pneumatic cylinder actuating)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]6.) Vacuum pump turns on (then turns off after (x) time)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]7.) Bottom platen moves back down.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]8.) Fan turns on[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Here is what I need the machine to do:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]1.) Operator loads parts into frame[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]2.) Press Start[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]3.) Frame moves under heating elements[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]4.) WHILE STILL UNDER HEATERS, vacuum pump turns on[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]5.) Vacuum pump/heaters turn off[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]6.) Frame moves back out[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]7.) Fan turns on[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]So comparing the new sequence, to the original sequence, here is what has changed:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]- Bottom platen no longer moves up/down (Steps 5 & 7 in original). We will not be using it at all.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]- We need the vacuum pump to turn on, WHILE STILL UNDER THE HEATERS. (So the heating elements will be on by themselves for (x) time, and then the vacuum pump will turn on, with the heaters staying on at the same time.)(Original sequence had the frame moving out from underneath the heaters, before the vacuum would turn on.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]I was able to delete the rungs which contained the Platen moving up/down, which worked when I cycled the machine again. (I simply deleted 15 & 23...I hope that was correct?)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]So that leaves me with how do I get the vacuum to turn on, while still inside of the oven? I have tried reorganizing in every possible way, with no success.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]This thing has been such a nightmare to troubleshoot, because I had NO information on it's I/O, electrical schematics, ANYTHING!!!I know I am going to have a D'Oh moment, the second I see the solution, and feel like a complete moron. I have just been staring at it for 24 hours, and have hit my wall of frustration!!![/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Here are the following documents to reference:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Electrical schematics (I am 99.9% positive these are all correct)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]ORIGINAL PROGRAM[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Modified program, minus rungs 15 & 23.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]PLEASE SOMEONE HELP!!!![/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0](And thank you in advance)[/SIZE]

ctybursk617, welcome!!
I would first start by documenting your ladder using nicknames for the I/O then rung comments to help you describe the sequence from there it should be a breEZe! To start it looks as though output (Y4) turns the vacuum on nickname (Y4) vacuum pump. Posting the actual ladder will help others here help you with less effort on their part. Good luck!

After documenting the inputs and outputs I would trash the ladder as written and use Stage Logic. You have precisely defined the steps. It would almost write itself. Read the CPU manual explanation.

Looks like T100-T104 sequences the heaters.
SET and RESET are available on the DL05. This would be the easiest.
Y100 (first heater) starts a new timer, T5, "Vac delay".
Timer T5 SETs a new bit, C50, "Vac enable."
Timer T104 RESETs C50.
Use C50 to turn on Y4.

Thanks everyone for the help!
Keithkyll one more thing I should mention, is that X7 (the limit switch), is what's "controlling" the vacuum. However, we have no need for the limit switch anymore, since we are not using the bottom platen. Won't I need to change the line for (Y4 OUT), so that it is not depenedent on X7 anymore? (rung 17)

I started documenting your addresses, but run out of time. Maybe I can finish it later.

Here is a translation of the original program, with symbol descriptions. The C-More Operator panel controls and data values could not be determined without info on the C-More screens. If you can load the C-More program, then post some pictures or text of the screen menuss, we could finish this sucker!

Lancie1 said:

Here is a translation of the original program, with symbol descriptions.

Click to expand...

Using Lancie1's hard work and Bernie's suggestion

bernie_carlton said:

I would trash the ladder as written and use Stage Logic. You have precisely defined the steps. It would almost write itself.

Click to expand...

I have attempted to write a program.

Note: manual operation has changed, each push of the start button when the selector switch is in manual will advance the machine steps.

Second note: because of how the original program was written the old timer values may not work as previously. If it's a problem let me know.

Vaughn,

It look very nice. If we knew how the C-More operator panel worked, you could add those rungs to the new program. I noticed that several of the old timers had variable preset values that were probably set in the C-More panel, and there were 4 or 5 data values that probably kept statistics on the process.

Sorry for not checking in until now, I was out of town for an interview (medical residency FINALLY!!).

First, let me thank everyone for their help. You guys really went above and beyond,exceeding what I ever imagined or anticipated.

Lancie1 said:

Here is a translation of the original program, with symbol descriptions. The C-More Operator panel controls and data values could not be determined without info on the C-More screens. If you can load the C-More program, then post some pictures or text of the screen menuss, we could finish this sucker!

Click to expand...

Second, thank you again to Lancie, and Milldrone for labeling those programs for me. That was a tremendous help! I am hoping to figure the panel out today. Thus far, I have found their product documentation to be extremely poor. Nothing is easy to find, and their manuals cover 50 different "similar" (similar being used loosely here) products. I don't care if you include a manual with my product, but if your going to save money by having us access them online, at least have the decency to create (1) ONE manual for each product.

milldrone said:

Using Lancie1's hard work and Bernie's suggestion



I have attempted to write a program.

Note: manual operation has changed, each push of the start button when the selector switch is in manual will advance the machine steps.

Second note: because of how the original program was written the old timer values may not work as previously. If it's a problem let me know.

Click to expand...

Third, Milldrone, I was in for about 15 minutes yesterday, and decided to upload your program to the PLC. In automatic mode, when I pressed the start button, the vacuum valve kicked on immediately, but the tray just sputtered in place, and did not move back into the oven. Is this a timing/operator panel issue you think?

I then went back and read your post again, so I flipped it into manual mode, hit start, and the tray moved into the oven. I pressed start again, and the tray came out of the oven. It seemed those were the only 2 things that it would do. Like I said I did not take a very close look at the program you wrote, just decided to upload, hit start, and cross my fingers!!!

I was thinking about the other suggestion by keithkyll, and thought maybe I would try that. The only problem is, where do I set it in the program? Would I set the timer, in the same line as the (Y100) output (heater 1)? What about resetting the timer?

As crazy as it sounds, I actually never learned ladder logic until now. I know Visual Basic, whatever the heck Animatics wants to call their language (nightmare maybe?), S7, etc. So maybe I am overthinking this ladder logic thing (which I have a tendency to do) and that's why I can't make total sense of it?

Hopefully that excuses my dumb questions, or at least makes them semi-acceptable? Haha

As crazy as it sounds, I actually never learned ladder logic until now. I know Visual Basic, whatever the heck Animatics wants to call their language (nightmare maybe?), S7, etc. So maybe I am overthinking this ladder logic thing (which I have a tendency to do) and that's why I can't make total sense of it?

Click to expand...

I hate to say this but I think you recived to much help on this one to fast. not allowing you to learn as the problems were solved. It is allways better to do the work yourself so as to completely understand the process.

ctybursk617 said:

Third, Milldrone, I was in for about 15 minutes yesterday, and decided to upload your program to the PLC. In automatic mode, when I pressed the start button, the vacuum valve kicked on immediately, but the tray just sputtered in place, and did not move back into the oven. Is this a timing/operator panel issue you think?

Click to expand...

Can you describe the timer values in Direct Soft as you are operating the machine. You will need to "Turn all status on"

ctybursk617 said:

I then went back and read your post again, so I flipped it into manual mode, hit start, and the tray moved into the oven. I pressed start again, and the tray came out of the oven. It seemed those were the only 2 things that it would do. Like I said I did not take a very close look at the program you wrote, just decided to upload, hit start, and cross my fingers!!

Click to expand...

I left out some of the timer addressing between the Cmore and the PLC this version restores some of what is missing.

I left out some of the timer addressing between the Cmore and the PLC this version restores some of what is missing.

Click to expand...

Yes, the C-More operation now is the missing link. Without knowing what is in the C-More program, it will be hard to make it work correctly. The C-More may very easily be counting the operations and stopping the process when Vxxxx = Vxxxx.

I hate to say this but I think you recived to much help on this one to fast. not allowing you to learn as the problems were solved. It is allways better to do the work yourself so as to completely understand the process.

Click to expand...

All I did was add symbol descriptions and a few rung comments to the old program. I do not see how you could ever call that as "too much help". I see that as only a starting point for figuring out how the old program worked. Vaughn took that and made some improvements, but without the C-More end, it is a gusssing game to coordinate the DL-05 program with the C-More inputs.

The C-More Operator panel controls and data values could not be determined without info on the C-More screens. If you can load the C-More program, then post some pictures or text of the screen menus, we could finish this sucker!

Click to expand...

EDIT: I see that there is there a free downloadable version of the C-More Micrographic 3" touch-panel program here:

http://support.automationdirect.com/demos.html#cmoremicro

It is 70 MBytes, so takes awhile to upload. Now if we only had a copy of the user program that is running on Ctybursk's C-More panel!

Ctybursk, do you have a copy of the program that is running on the C-More Micrographics 3" operator panel? If you do, would you ZIP it and post it here? (Congratulations on your medical residency. Are you going to be an MD, or something else?)

Vaughn, I see that you left out the CO, C1, and C2 relays. Most likely these are the LED indicators on the C-More panel for AUTO, MANUAL, and OFF modes. Also, there are 5 functions buttons on the 3" C-More, 3 are probably AUTO, MANUAL, and START. I wonder for what are the other two buttons used? I really think that in this case, not knowing what is in the C-More, it would have been better to first revise the existing program to remove the parts needed, without changing the program basic organization and making sure to leave all of the defined "C" relays. Rewriting should only come after we get a copy of the C-More running program, and get the original revised program running.

All I did was add symbol descriptions and a few rung comments to the old program. I do not see how you could classify that as "too much help". I see that as only a starting point for figuring out how the old program worked. Vaughb took that and made some improvements, but without the C-More end, it is a gusssing game to coordinate the DL-05 program with the C-More inputs.

Click to expand...

yes thats true!

Keithkyll one more thing I should mention, is that X7 (the limit switch), is what's "controlling" the vacuum. However, we have no need for the limit switch anymore, since we are not using the bottom platen. Won't I need to change the line for (Y4 OUT), so that it is not depenedent on X7 anymore? (rung 17)

Click to expand...

however at this point the op was thinking!
and simply posting code seemed to lead him to think the work was done for him, thus he downloaded a non working suliton to the plc.
I dont think you did anything wrong and did not mean to sound that way. its really hard to read the op in some cases to know if he is grasping the concept behind the help he is given.
in this case I dont think he fully understood the big picture. Steve

Also, there are 5 functions buttons on the 3" C-More, 3 are probably AUTO, MANUAL, and START. I wonder for what are the other two buttons used?

Click to expand...

Looking at the old program, probably the other two buttons are "RESET AUTO-MODE" (C-More relay C10), and maybe "LOAD NEW PROCESS VALUE" (C-More relay C102).

Still to make it run correctly, it is necessary to KNOW for SURE what functions the five C-More buttons are set for, and what functions the 5 C-More LED indicators are supposed to indicate.